March 30 - April 3, 2009

[CSF]

ITA! :lol:

Is B&B even popular in Italy and France? I know GL was very popular in Italy. But you would think B&B would be a laughing stock in France and Italy because cities like Paris and Milan and their fashion districts. Then you see B&B with awful Forrester Creations and Brooke's Bedroom (which I swear they stole the idea from NBC's Veronica's Closet). Then again, they may find B&B to be more amusing since it's so poorly put together.

[CSF]

I think all 3 ABC soaps will end on the same day. I say that because those three are in their hour long block and those three move in the same similar patterns, ratings wise. It's not the same situation when ABC canceled Ryan's Hope or Loving or the City or Port Charles, or even Edge of Night for that matter.

I also believe that when the time comes, ABC will replace their daytime with a new form of soaps like Finding Erica or something similar.

[quartermainefan]

B&B strikes me as the soap most easily accessible to international audiences. The over the topness is something that translates into any language.

[FrenchFan]

Y&R is the most popular soap in France. Then comes B&B. Just like in the USA.

[Ann_SS]

The main reason that I do not think that ABC soaps get canceled at the same time is because it would be difficult for ABC to come up with 3 hours of network programming and they would not want to lose the hours to the affiliates. This makes me think that ABC will stagger the cancellation of its soaps.

[CSF]

I know what you mean, and that's a smart way to look at it. At the same time, I can also see them coming up with a package thing where they introduce 3 different soaps that will last for a set period of time and at their conclusion will begin with a spinoff from those and so on.

What makes me think of ABC ending all 3 of their soaps at once is that due to the crossover's I wouldn't be surprised if they did some happy ending for all 3 where character's from the past come back and stop by each town saying their farewells, all while special praise goes to Sonny at GH, Zack at AMC and John at OLTL.

[CSF]

hmmm... I guess they don't care that it's core anymore isn't predominately fashion and they like B&B's silliness. I would just think if it was more like The Devil Wear's Prada, it would be great, but I suppose not.

[Carolyn1980]

I don't think the networks are going to program daytime forever. Even NBC is down to but one hour for daytime, DAYS. I think if CBS's replacement programming tanks, they'll just give that hour back to the affiliates rather than keep trying losers in the slot. By the time AMC/OLTL/GH are ready for the dumpster (and I'll go against the grain here and say that will be more than 5 years....but less than 10), I think ABC will be done with daytime, aside from The View. Heck, NBC has already said they might be a basic cable network within 5 years, and CBS's Les Moonves said the same of CBS within 10 years. Surely, ABC and FOX would likely follow suit.

In other words, there are big changes in broadcast television....maybe even the end of broadcast TV for the major nets if/when they morph into basic cable outlets. So I still believe all three ABC shows will go out together. (It will be an interesting time to watch the nets, though, regardless).

[MarkH]

If daytime persists (i.e., drama), I really believe you have hit on the formula. That said, as Carolyn1980 notes...

....bingo. The question is whether, when ABC rightfully dumps the lousy, rotten, recalcitrant, antiquated, old-model affiliates, and goes to cable, whether the soaps will go to a network (e.g., Soapnet) and be SUSTAINABLE in some form? That is the huge question for me.

I'm thinking they will not be sustanable. But maybe something like ClassicSoapFan's idea...a string of Night Shifts, so to speak ... might work

[CSF]

I think the end of broadcast television will be a sad thing in a sense. I can see NBC becoming a basic cable network. But at the same time, making that switch, I feel is a big loss for everyone. I still find broadcast television to be essential.

I agree that ABC soaps will end together, but I think ABC will do like I predicted and produce a new form of daytime. Instead of the traditional never ending saga, a more youth oriented program that has a beginning and an end and is followed by another, like a Nightshift, then a Finding Erica and so forth.

I don't think CBS would give up that time period if their game show fails. I only say that because look at how badly CBS has preformed from 7-9am for the past 30 plus years and they have yet to relinquish those two hours to the affiliates. They have yet to have a successful morning news program, but they are still holding onto their time.

Judging how NBC does when the Tonight Show moves to the early time period suggested, I think that will determine if and when NBC becomes a basic cable network. Has any of ABC's mid-season replacements been a ratings hits? Looking at the primetime ratings, as usual, CBS has a 2 million plus lead over ABC, NBC, CW, FOX as usual.

[MarkH]

Good point on CBS and 7-9 am.

But, that daypart is under the control of CBSNews (not CBSDaytime), and so different rules may govern relinquishment. News is often protected against economic factors. Plus, I assume, the News Division pays its own way?

They can repurpose a lot of stories on the morning news, plus they can use it as a promotional tool for their primetime shows...so I think that helps protect the news division. I think CBS also has some kind of cable news network that repurposes the reports too? Is that right? I don't get that here...

You know, I don't cry for the loss of broadcast TV. Affiliates made sense when every city/town needed a relay station for a network broadcast. It was a distribution system borne of radio technology.

Now, though, I find affiliates to be retrogressive and not in the interest of the network. They refuse to carry network shows, some censor/drop shows when they become controversial. They try to dictate what the networks air at 10 pm because all they care about is a good lead-in for their 11 pm news. I HATE what affiliates have become.

So, let the affiliates try to survive as local operations without network feeds!

[CSF]

I totally agree with your points on the affiliates, they often cause a lot of damage to the network. We should not forget, it was the affiliates who started airing Guiding Light at 10am and I believe the Sacramento station dropped GL altogether in 1997?

One thing about your response to the news holding that 7-9 time period. I think in Utah (don't remember if that was the right state), they don't even air TES, instead they air their own local morning news show. I think it was the Salt Lake City station, but I could be mistake. I read that somewhere once. I don't know if other stations follow that practice as well.

I however, do not blame the affiliates for CBS' failure in the morning. They had their chance to start fresh when NBC created Today/Tonight and that seemed to be the only time period where CBS couldn't just sit back and let an audience grow. Morning show after morning show they created and canceled and created and canceled. How many did CBS have in the last 30 years? Morning, CBS Morning News, The Morning Program, CBS This Morning, This Morning, The Early Show? 6? Am I missing any?

I'm sure CBS was under a lot of pressure from the affiliates to produce a good competitor against ABC and NBC, but still I lay that fault on CBS, going back to the 1950s. ABC created GMA in 1975, and look at that, it's still doing well and for a time it was even the number 1 morning show.

From 1979 until 2009, CBS has had 6 different incarnations of a morning news program and each a failure.

[MarkH]

Sweeps ratings (I assume HH; interesting they wouldn't focus on the 18-49 demo, which must be minimal for some of these shows...I'm positive many skew older) for non-soap daytime and early prime shows. Very interesting as a basis for comparison. The source is here, and the original text is posted at bottom.

Weeks of March 5 - April 1, 2009

Wheel of Fortune: 7.2 (down 8% from last year)

Jeopardy: 5.8 (down 6% from last year)

Oprah: 5.4 (up 10% over last year)

Two and a Half Men: 4.8 (down 8% from last year)

Judge Judy: 4.4 (down 6% from last year)

Entertainment Tonight: 4.3 (down 2% from last year)

Family Guy: 4.0 (down 13% from last year)

Y&R 3.7

Seinfeld: 3.6 (down 12% from last year)

Dr Phil: 3.5 (down 17% from last year)

Everybody Loves Raymond: 3.1 (down 16% from last year)

Inside Edition: 3.0 (down 6% from last year)

George Lopez: 2.8 (down 13% from last year)

King of Queens: 2.8 (down 7% from last year)

King of the Hill: 2.7 (up 17% from last year)

Live with Regis & Kelly: 2.6 (down 4% from last year)

Friends: 2.5 (down 14% from last year)

B&B 2.5

Who Wants to Be a Millionaire: 2.4 (down 14% from last year)

Ellen Degeneres: 2.3 (up 10% from last year)

TMZ: 2.3 (up 5% from last year)

Judge Joe Brown: 2.2 (down 12% from last year)

Access Hollywood: 2.2 (down 4% from last year)

AMC 2.0

OLTL 2.0

GH 2.0

The Doctors: 1.9 (up 46% from premiere)

People's Court: 1.9 (down 17% from last year)

ATWT 1.9

Rachel Ray: 1.8 (down 5% from last year)

Maury: 1.8 (down 5% from last year)

Extra: 1.8 (up 6% from last year)

Insider: 1.8 (down 14% from last year)

Deal or No Deal: 1.7 (up 6% from premiere)

Judge Mathis: 1.6 (down 20% from last year)

GL 1.6

Judge Alex: 1.5 (down 12% from last year)

Family Feud: 1.5 (down 21% from last year)

Divorce Court: 1.4 (down 18% from last year)

Tyra: 1.1 (unchanged from premiere)

Cristina's Court: 1.1 (down 8% from last year)

Jerry Springer: 1.1 (down 8% from last year)

Steve Wilkos: 1.1 (up 22% from last year)

Bonnie Hunt: 1.0 (up 25% from premiere)

Judge Karen: 0.9 (down 18% from premiere)

Morning Show with Mike and Juliet: 0.9 (down 10% from last year)

Judge David Young: 0.8 (unchanged from last year)

Martha Stewart: 0.7 (down 30% from last year)

Trivial Pursuit: 0.6 (unchanged from premiere)

Family Court: 0.5 (down 17% from premiere)

[Ann_SS]

Wow, overall the daytime ratings suck. Oprah had picked which is a surprise. IMO, these ratings show the danger that the soaps are in, especially ATWT. Most of the talk, court and game shows are cheaper to produce and they are doing better in the HHs. The demos would likely give a better indication though. I bet most of those shows have demos that do not come close to the ABC soaps' demos.

[MarkH]

For completeness, I'd like to get the morning programs (Today, GMA, CBS), The View, and Price Is Right on this list. It would help me get a better gestalt of the daytime landscape.

The fact that several of these shows are pulling much better numbers than even Y&R does (and probably with better demos) does support the idea that soaps might be "priced out of the business" given what they return to their networks.