Yup, I said it. I'm trying to channel some of the success of a previous thread.

B&B is devolving and devolving into the worst kind of soap. Pure superficial camp (with no humor value), and aging cast (mostly underused) with no viable younger generation, some potential major cast losses (Flannery, Lang) with no hope of replacement, and increasingly reliance on melodramatic manipulation for brief spikes. Cheap set design (no major new investments in years), dress and set work that do not befit a major fashion soap, the absence of ethnic diversity or sexuality diversity (in the LA rag trade!!!).

Time and again, A-list players have been added to the cast, and the production staff...and the show either under-uses them (the classic one-cycle and then dismissal pattern at B&, or fails to let them bring their A-game. (I am assuming that Kay Alden is being stifled, rather than contributing to the ruination we see today).

I'm not saying anything original here. These sentiments have abounded on every message board for a very long time. But nothing ever changes.

With Bradley Bell becoming interested in primetime production and feature films, he MUST retreat from his show. It is fine if he retains the title of "Senior Executive Producer". But he needs to appoint a strong HW (he can do story approval...kind of like a network exec does too...but he needs to keep his mitts off), and he needs to shake up the production with a strong EP.

Please, let us put this "out there". Let us save this show from total decline. Channel all your thoughts into this . The show is broken, and it must either be fixed, or it must die. But the status quo is giving me heartburn.

You have a Y&R in your title.

Here is what JamesF would do; I totally agree with everything written in the post:

B&B

On the production side I would immediately re-evaluate the way in which the show is shot and find the best possible way to squeeze as much visual quality into 18 minutes a day as possible. This might include arranging several regular locations and adapting the filming schedule similarly to Aussie soaps with a couple of days a week for location shooting and the other three for studio, taping out of sequence. I would also make sure that scripts are full of movement (as LML has tried to do with Y&R). Not three scenes of two people talking to one another for an entire episode. Cast size would ideally be up towards 24 contract players to breathe some life into the show and detach all the incestuous Forrester couplings. I'm all for an integrated cast but the greatest asset of the show is that it has the fashion industry to tie characters together. They don't need to be Forresters. I'd also go to great lengths to determine a definitive timeline to counteract the OTT SORASing and it would create continuity in story/dialogue.

I would be reluctant to fire anyone though if I did I would probably err towards Jack Wagner and maybe even Lesley Anne Down. The Marones have never fit into the show in a logical way and that's reflected by the convoluted business angle which I would also slimline. It's completely illogical that an ex-sailor would be running a fashion house so that aspect would be out the door and the Forresters would win back their original company (though with as many Logan shaped complications as I could muster to create an interesting business angle). The multiple fashion houses named Forrester is unrealistic and confusing for casual viewers.

The Forresters would thus remain front and centre but I'd look to the fashion industry as a whole to populate the rest of the canvas and give some genuine glamour and authenticity -- look at Ugly Betty for example as a different perspective of the fashion industry based on media. There are a wealth of related industries. I'd bring back Eye on Fashion with a ruthless editor who has a beef with the Forresters, perhaps Shane McGrath's natural mother who gave him up for adoption (I'd also try to go for a name -- Donna Mills maybe). I would most likely make Eric's never seen brother John publisher and a sexy, enigmatic villain. The kind of character Massimo should have been. Designers and models would also be prominent again. It would also open the door for Jessica to return, possibly as a model.

Story wise I've not given any thought to but off the top of my head Brooke and Ridge would be over and done with permanently and I would continue the Thorne/Logan sisters arc. I'd give Brooke a gay designer friend -- she needs a sounding board that isn't family and unfortunately viewers would cry foul if she had a hint of a platonic friendship with a straight guy. If there was a logical way to sidestep the Phyllis issue and bring Sheila back as a semi-redeemed player in the fashion industry I'd go for it. Maybe have her writing a slanted book about her time in the Forrester family, bankrolled by John Forrester. I'd be tempted to go for a Taylor/Storm/Felicia triangle. Mark McClain would make a return to give Clarke some family. That's just a few rough ideas.

You have a Y&R in your title.

YES I NOTICED. arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Can someone PLEASE fix this say "B&B"? I am smacking myself. Argh!

> It would also open the door for Jessica to return, possibly as a model.

Yeah, add another Forrester to bring more diversity to the show.

> Story wise I've not given any thought to but off the top of my head Brooke and Ridge would be over and done with permanently and I would continue

> the Thorne/Logan sisters arc.

OMG, I will never understand why people give a damn about Thorne. He's a poor character played by an un-charismatic actor. The only times he was remotely interesting were when he was engaged to Brooke, and when he sent his parents to take a hyke. Aside from that, I'm happy he's on the backburner. What about recasting him with a good actor a la Billy Miller/Y&R? It would breath fresh air into the character.

> If there was a logical way to sidestep the Phyllis issue and bring Sheila back as a semi-redeemed player in the fashion industry I'd go for it

Please, no. That's a dead horse that really doesn't need anymore beating.

> I'd be tempted to go for a Taylor/Storm/Felicia triangle.

Storm - that's another spineless man I don't understand why some fans were so fond of. He did not fit in the "alpha male B&B stereotype" (let's just say), and certainly he was not Felicia's type.

> Mark McClain would make a return to give Clarke some family. That's just a few rough ideas.

Clarke - another character that cannot drive a storyline.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with almost everything of the post that Sylph has quoted. I don't think the show needs 24 characters (!?), but it surely does need an overhaul ------> which doesn't imply front-burnering characters like Thorne and Felicia or Clarke for that matter.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with almost everything of the post that Sylph has quoted. I don't think the show needs 24 characters (!?), but it surely does need an overhaul ------> which doesn't imply front-burnering characters like Thorne and Felicia or Clarke for that matter.

Well, some time ago, I proposed something more radical. I argued that in the short term the show should distill itself down to four female core characters

Stephanie (briefly, but knowing she is the retiring matriarch)

Brooke (as the new matriarch who is ethically challenged)

Taylor (back to her old self, as the matriarch with integrity and principles)

Felicia (as the head of Forrester, and a nasty slut).

The "matriarch" label implies that aged, well cast children for Brooke (not so much Bridget and Rick...I'm really talking more Hope and Jack and RJ...although I think Bridget and Rick have hope in them if they can break the cycle of incest and age inappropriate relationships) and Taylor drive the drama. That doesn't mean that Brooke and Taylor can't continue to have romantic lives...but I really think (after the wringer both have been through) that it is time to scale back on that.

You'll note that every major male front burner character is off the show in this vision...Thorne, Ridge and Eric are all gone. AND ESPECIALLY NICK MARONE. UGH!

Then, in what I posted, I proposed that the vacancies in the canvas be used to bring in diversity and new blood. My choice for a new core family would be the Bakers (Lt. and Charlie)...Charlie would be Marcus' daddy (and YES, Charlie is old enough...Mykel is in the same age range as Jennifer Gareis). I don't want to keep Donna or Katie...but Marcus could stay around for Steffy...and be the lever to bring in the extended Baker clan. (I don't think Marcus is great, but I really want the extended Baker clan). The Baker clan could provide some new designers or models, but they'd also bring in a more "working class" vibe (much needed). Stealing an idea from someone else (Cat? DaytimeFan? Marceline?), I'd bring back CJ Garrison as a flamboyant gay man (preferably now with a shock of red hair), and have him rebuild Spectra. CJ would be every bit the loud Diva his mother was...albeit not too effeminate. CJ's romantic travails would become a key component of the revamped B&B.

I realize this would ve a radically different B&B...but I really, really, really believe that is the level of reinvention needed.

I should also add, in my list above, Felicia is kind of superfluous. Indeed, I'm not totally clear how she is integrated? But on the strength of her dying-of-cancer arc, I think she could be powerful. One scenario that appeals to me is for Felicia to also have a bit of matriarch status (Dante...and, if needed...a retcon child she gave up in adolescence too)...and to specifically battle Brooke and her offspring for control of Forrester.

Ideas like this are why I am not working in daytime .

I agree with your initial statement, Mark, and have felt the same way for a long time.

The point is that the ingredients are there -- long-standing characters, many of whom are played by great actors... a history that can be easily mined... heck, a style that once defined the show (you only need to check out YouTube's many postings from the 80s and 90s) -- but they are not being utlized properly.

The show, above everything else, IMO, needs balance. Balanced use of the cast, balanced storytelling, nuanced and balanced characterization. Right now, it all seems so... bipolar. I feel like TPTB just don't know what they want to do with the show. In fact, it feels like they are making sh!t up as they go along. It just feels very slap-dash and lazy.

BIG AGREE on Nick. He needs to die.

I think they should play on Brooke and Taylor's romantic lives as long as they possibly can (granted, that's not the only thing). Then, they can become matriarchs, you know. And they should also stop focusing on Bridget and Rick: their age is so distracting. Please, send them off and see you in ten years.

I'm also happy that Brooke has never had any medical issue. That's a soap cliché I hope they'll never inject on her because I see her as a syren, I don't know, just something mythical that never really falls down.

What I wished for B&B? Since the show really needs someone to shake it, I hoped that Drucilla would cross-over on B&B when her Y&R role was over. Back then, there was this rumor that BB was interested in her and Latham killed her for this reason. Right now, knowing what we know about VR's personality, and assuming it is true, I wonder how much truth was in that rumor. That being said, I would have loved for Drucilla to come to B&B and start a SERIOUS cross-over (like the one with Sheila), maybe taking over Spectra? I dunno, but she could have stirred some trouble.

PS. during the last period she was on Y&R Drucilla became way too cartoonish. So, when I talk about Dru joining B&B I mean the REAL Dru.

Edited September 20, 200817 yr by Hotness

^^ I agree that Nick and the Marones are a spent force. I'm just not interested in seeing Jack Wagner on my screen anymore, even though when he first came, I was pleased that Dr Whatshisname from Melrose Place was coming to shake up the show!

I would also like to know why Lesli Kay is not given more to do. She has so much potential and such great chemistry with the other actors, it hurts me almost physically to see her wasted.

^^ I agree that Nick and the Marones are a spent force.

Which is what JamesF - with whose post Hotness disagrees with - first said.

Which is what JamesF - with whose post Hotness disagrees with - first said.

He said he would probably err towards firing "Jack Wagner and maybe even Lesley Anne Down", and I said I disagreed with almost everything he said...

He said he would probably err towards firing "Jack Wagner and maybe even Lesley Anne Down", and I said I disagreed with almost everything he said...

But then you somewhat didn't... 

No need for apologies MarkH, my drum beating was a success, LML (that hack bitch pile of sh*t) was fired...happy to beat a new drum along with you.

I have to say, JamesF's post that Sylph quoted sounds terrific. The worst part of B&B as of late is that it is utterly devoid of fashion. The cast is being wasted and there needs to be a few additions in order to jazz up the show. The elements are there, B&B is far from broken...it's just stagnant and I think it's going to take Brad Bell to take a step back and let everyone else associated with the show (as well as perhaps a consultant of some sort, MAB for instance who, allegedly, spearheaded the fashion storylines as well as Sally Spectra *gasp*) do what they do best. Alden IS a good worker bee, Smith IS a good writer, Kelly, Mulcahey, Friedman, Pop, Shaugnessy, Dusevoir, EVERYONE has some talent, nobody is lazy. Brad needs to give up a bit of control and allow for some collaboration.

But then you somewhat didn't... 

Uh? And what's that supposed to mean? Yeeaah, whatever you say

I admit I rarely get to watch B&B and prob can't fairly say this, but it does seem for the past 5years or so (longer?) you hear about a well loved former soap star, or even bigger star, being hired for the show--they come on and it seems liek 3 months later they're GONE and I turn the show back on and see the SAME characters (Ridge etc)

I know this may because of budget issues, but I never understood

why the EP or a creator of a soap have to also the to be the headwriter

of a soap. I just think it gives a person too much power to destroy a show.

Just because your last name is a Corday or a Bell doesn't mean you're

just as good of a writer or producer than your parents.

I just wish most of these people in charge realize that their time is up and

let someone else breathe some new life into this genre.

Hopefully, more veteran performers speak against the system if they

don't like their storyline or the way the show is run and the fan don't

bash them because of it.