I was never a fan of Six Feet Under, but I did enjoy American Beauty. It was dark and it was gloomy, but it was so different at the time, it was done and I thought very creative. The acting was excellent too. I never found watching a paper bag blow around so interesting. I'm going to rent it and watch it again at some point to see if I find it as interesting now as I did years ago.

Yes, you are right. It was very well written, acted and produced. But the endless gloom and misery of these people were sickening. I watched it, but it took me a great deal of will-power to endure the show during all of its seasons.

You know, I tend to think of that movie more as interesting than enjoyable.

And American Beauty was interesting. But nothing original - previously Blue Velvet, Happiness and The Ice Storm covered much the same terrain.

Yes, you are right. It was very well written, acted and produced. But the endless gloom and misery of these people were sickening. I watched it, but it took me a great deal of will-power to endure the show during all of its seasons.

And American Beauty was interesting. But nothing original - previously Blue Velvet, Happiness and The Ice Storm covered much the same terrain.

Now Ice Storm? That's my idea of overrated!

sorry, Sylph. It may be my fault EVERYONE is using capitals and not bolding and italicizing. Being relatively new here, I just realized you could do this. Not all boards have this feature.

No, no, it's not your fault! No need for an apology! I think I'm the problem - I always like to experiment with new user interfaces and possibilities of various message boards (not only can you - of course - italicise by pressing the i, you can use the standard shortcut Ctrl + I). And I'm usually painfully pedantic about these sort of things: capitals, italics etc.

I think we have to agree to disagree on Six Feet Under, though. I thought first season was one of the most brilliant seasons of television. I was invested in each and every character. It was definitely a serial. What about Sopranos; serial or no?

Yes, we can agree that Six Feet Under and The Sopranos (another show that was splendid, which I didn't enjoy ) were serials.

You obviously haven't read all my posts that followed. Even though something has serialised elements, it doesn't mean it is a serial. And why on Earth is everyone using the capitals when the text can be italicised and bolded?

I find him, his American Beauty and Six Feet Under laaaargely overestimated. I watched the show, but I found it unbearable with all its gloom, sickness and plain awfulness. A terrible show.

Well Sylph, here we have a major, major disagreement. I miss Six Feet Under immeasureably, and drag out my DVDs continuously. Few shows move me as consistently as this. Obviously a funeral home show has a guaranteed dose of gloom and pain, but it is the lightness and the discovery and the progress for each character that keeps me riveted. So much humor and love amidst the backdrop of pain. I didn't like American Beauty much, so I didn't actually feel any desire to watch SFU. Of course, once I saw one episode (something mid-Season One), I was hooked.

We can't trivialize shows like ER or The Office or Brothers and Sisters or whatever as having serialized elements. I consider them to be TRUE serials, albeit with episodic elements too, and innovations in the form. As such, these pseudo-hybrids (I think they are more serial than non-serial) are the wave of the future.

As for italics and bold...they are a pain-in-the-youknow. A CAPITAL works just as well, and for the informal writing that this space engenders, I think they are suitable. If there is a SON Style Manual which mandates the use of this formatting, please let me know. Otherwise, I'll save the bold/italic for academic writing and magazine articles...unless I'm feeling less lazy .

Well Sylph, here we have a major, major disagreement. I miss Six Feet Under immeasureably, and drag out my DVDs continuously. Few shows move me as consistently as this. Obviously a funeral home show has a guaranteed dose of gloom and pain, but it is the lightness and the discovery and the progress for each character that keeps me riveted. So much humor and love amidst the backdrop of pain. I didn't like American Beauty much, so I didn't actually feel any desire to watch SFU. Of course, once I saw one episode (something mid-Season One), I was hooked.

Finally - we disagree! I really found it unbearable and pretentious.

We can't trivialize shows like ER or The Office or Brothers and Sisters or whatever as having serialized elements. I consider them to be TRUE serials, albeit with episodic elements too, and innovations in the form. As such, these pseudo-hybrids (I think they are more serial than non-serial) are the wave of the future.

Who is trivialising what? We have to stop adding new shows to the list! I never said ER and Brothers and Sisters weren't serials!!!

As for italics and bold...they are a pain-in-the-youknow. A CAPITAL works just as well, and for the informal writing that this space engenders, I think they are suitable. If there is a SON Style Manual which mandates the use of this formatting, please let me know. Otherwise, I'll save the bold/italic for academic writing and magazine articles...unless I'm feeling less lazy .

OK.

Edited July 6, 200817 yr by Sylph

You obviously haven't read all my posts that followed. Even though something has serialised elements, it doesn't mean it is a serial. And why on Earth is everyone using the capitals when the text can be italicised and bolded?

I find him, his American Beauty and Six Feet Under laaaargely overestimated. I watched the show, but I found it unbearable with all its gloom, sickness and plain awfulness. A terrible show.

Sylph remember when I said I had a crush on you? yeah it's starting to fade:P

I think I like doom and gloom--I like some of McTavish's stuff afterall. The more the critics hated SFUnder (and oddly adored their pet show SOprano's which I found way more distresssing) the more I ADORED SFUnder. I've never had a show speak to me that way (now I sound creepy) and it's my fave show of all time. I think the show was undervalued--I admit I may have started to like it more when my twin sis gave it to my dad and his new wife and they said they didn't understand or get it

What I liked most about it is every character could be hated and loved at different times--the writing was so true to them. EVerytime I ahve a friend who gets into it they tell me who their fave character is and I know within 15 episodes that will change. Just like real life (Ok I didn't just say that...) It's one of those shows I think if someone I respected didn't get, I'd urge them to check it out again--the way I would with a novel like Jamie O'Neil's At Swim Two Boys

FOr the record I find American Beauty cute but facile but I chalk it up more to Sam Mendes--a GOOD but not great theatre director who revolutionized London's D Warehouse. Ball himself in the same article I can't find I'm sure saidhe liked best being able to build characters over many episodes

E

Edited July 6, 200817 yr by EricMontreal22

I think I like doom and gloom--I like some of McTavish's stuff afterall. The more the critics hated SFUnder (and oddly adored their pet show SOprano's which I found way more distresssing) the more I ADORED SFUnder. I've never had a show speak to me that way (now I sound creepy) and it's my fave show of all time. I think the show was undervalued--I admit I may have started to like it more when my twin sis gave it to my dad and his new wife and they said they didn't understand or get it

I also like doom and gloom. Melancholy anything (music, books, cinema, TV) puts me in a contemplative mood...it gets me deeper (if that makes sense). That's probably why the death of Cassie is one of my all time favorite stories on Y&R. I really FELT something for the show then...and I have found all the drama that spun off from that the most satisfying in many years.

(B&B's Sturm und Drang in recent years is not the same...because it is so cynically manufactured to provoke a response...assembly line tragedy...here comes the next one).

Right now, I'm converting some of my vinyl disks to MP3s, and as I type this I'm on Judy Collins. She is my emotional soul mate :-). Send in the Clown, My Father, Both Sides Now.

So, I suspect my love for Thirtysomething, Six Feet Under, Tammy the Hooker on GH (#1), Cassie's death, and Judy Collins is because I find such incredible beauty in pain and its survival. That's the part of soaps that I love...far more than Mendorran princes and bitch-slaps.

Mark I think my Sylph crush has moved to you That's exactly how I am (though I only know Collins thru her Sondheim and Leonard Cohen recordings-0-but those are two obssessions of mine that go deeper than soaps and I guess both are pretty depressing too )

But yeah I think even as a young teen what really hooked me on soaps was the suffering aspect-- In All Her Children, Dan Wakefield talks about being alone and newly seperated on Xmas, and every single tv show being cheery--except All my Children where an older woman was pouring herslef a drink and toasting herself. And he was hooked. I get that.

ANd you guys are all missing why I think it was incredible Ball said that about soaps--SFUnder at the time was a huge critical hit. He called critics on it and said it was just him trying to write a good soap

Eric, you SLUT!

Now Ice Storm? That's my idea of overrated!

I actually kinda adore it. And just when I was liking you CCT... It's my third fave Ang Lee film.

Edited July 6, 200817 yr by EricMontreal22

Eric, you SLUT!

Just easily suggestible on these boards

Mark I think my Sylph crush has moved to you That's exactly how I am (though I only know Collins thru her Sondheim and Leonard Cohen recordings-0-but those are two obssessions of mine that go deeper than soaps and I guess both are pretty depressing too )

But yeah I think even as a young teen what really hooked me on soaps was the suffering aspect-- In All Her Children, Dan Wakefield talks about being alone and newly seperated on Xmas, and every single tv show being cheery--except All my Children where an older woman was pouring herslef a drink and toasting herself. And he was hooked. I get that.

Ah, crushes...so fleeting :-).

Listen, if we're making admissions here, can I say I LOVED McTavish's Babe-Biance baby switch storyline...the one that involved Kelly on OLTL too.

Loss of baby, hidden secrets, psychic connection to one's child....all culminating in that blessed Christmas reunion. This no longer seems to have anything to do with ratings...but I thought that was CLASSIC All My Children...nearly the whole canvas was involved in that story...it made clear that Bianca was the emotional core and lead ingenue of the show...just a perfect, perfect story IMO. I know McTavish is the "enemy" here, but that storyline was greatness IMO.

I guess I'll have to look at that Wakefield book.

Meh I've long loved *elements* of "McTrash's" storytelling. Don't worry--and that was one of them.

Do check out the book--it's outstanding--from Wakefield's childhood confessions of listening to radio soaps in the closet (something he said was worse than being caught masturbating) to why he was turned on to Pine Valley. It's prob my fave soap book

Edited July 7, 200817 yr by EricMontreal22

Ah, crushes...so fleeting :-).

Listen, if we're making admissions here, can I say I LOVED McTavish's Babe-Biance baby switch storyline...the one that involved Kelly on OLTL too.

Loss of baby, hidden secrets, psychic connection to one's child....all culminating in that blessed Christmas reunion. This no longer seems to have anything to do with ratings...but I thought that was CLASSIC All My Children...nearly the whole canvas was involved in that story...it made clear that Bianca was the emotional core and lead ingenue of the show...just a perfect, perfect story IMO. I know McTavish is the "enemy" here, but that storyline was greatness IMO.

I guess I'll have to look at that Wakefield book.

I think a lot of us were loving the idea of that one, but concerned which show would profit hte most from it, in this case AMC, and it did nothing for them.