23 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

No problem, and I'm sorry I misunderstood.  Somehow I thought the criticism had been against the recently posted episode from 1953.  And actually, I thought that episode was pretty damned good.  

I thought so too. It was nice to see some different characters. I am trying to remember if I've seen either of the guys (Warren or Marty) elsewhere. Earl Montgomery as Marty (if IMDB is accurate) was living a rough life for 32 years old. At first, I wasn't sure if that was Grant Richards as Warren as when I looked up Richards he seemed to be doing a William Powell homage in the late '30s, but his "daddy" vibes here do match how he looked in a Rifleman episode I found on Youtube. 

I'm always glad for glimpses of Peggy McCay and Jean McBride too - in episodes like this they are styled similarly enough to where the good sister/bad sister vibes come through even more. I loved the shot of the tea service too. There's something so effortlessly cool and camp with Jean. 

For anyone like me who could not remember what was going on with the 10K Vanessa needed, a few years ago the channel put up an episode which gives the reason why.

One thing that does confuse me is this episode (on another channel) is dated May 22 but seems to have very different storylines. Is one of the episodes misdated?

 

My favorite part of that episode was that Marty guy's way of saying, "Va-nessa." That would have probably been the talk of soap boards back in 1953...along with GL fans saying they'll never accept the Meta recast. 

On 11/26/2024 at 5:55 PM, DRW50 said:

Oh I know it must be bad (I know the idea is it was written like a radio soap but many radio soaps were good)...just morbidly curious.

Oh, I absolutely adore many radio soaps, and agree they could be absolutely fabulous. The Guiding Light, Ma Perkins, One Man's Family, and several others come to mind.

Alas, Jean Holloway's tenure as Love of Life's writer was (IMHO, of course) subpar. Not because it harkened back to the radio era, but because her material was just bad.

21 hours ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

No problem, and I'm sorry I misunderstood.  Somehow I thought the criticism had been against the recently posted episode from 1953.  And actually, I thought that episode was pretty damned good.  

LoL was very good in the 1950s; better than any soap being produced now in 2024!

19 hours ago, DRW50 said:

My favorite part of that episode was that Marty guy's way of saying, "Va-nessa." That would have probably been the talk of soap boards back in 1953...along with GL fans saying they'll never accept the Meta recast. 

I usually resist soap recasts unless the original performer is noticeably weak, but Ellen Demming became my favorite Meta. I adored her, and it was painful to see the actress and actress fade into oblivion by the 1970s.

12 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Oh, I absolutely adore many radio soaps, and agree they could be absolutely fabulous. The Guiding Light, Ma Perkins, One Man's Family, and several others come to mind.

Alas, Jean Holloway's tenure as Love of Life's writer was (IMHO, of course) subpar. Not because it harkened back to the radio era, but because her material was just bad.

LoL was very good in the 1950s; better than any soap being produced now in 2024!

I usually resist soap recasts unless the original performer is noticeably weak, but Ellen Demming became my favorite Meta. I adored her, and it was painful to see the actress and actress fade into oblivion by the 1970s.

I was just joking because it's what soap fans often do with recasts, although in the case of GL I actually did stick to my guns about not accepting many of the recasts. 

What we've seen of LOL circa 1952/1953 does seem very smooth, polished, and sure of itself and its core themes. I don't remember how much of the later '50s is available but I do wonder what changes (especially once Peggy McCay leaves). 

(I think one episode with Bonnie Bartlett is around)

On 11/27/2024 at 6:51 PM, DRW50 said:

I was just joking because it's what soap fans often do with recasts, although in the case of GL I actually did stick to my guns about not accepting many of the recasts. 

What we've seen of LOL circa 1952/1953 does seem very smooth, polished, and sure of itself and its core themes. I don't remember how much of the later '50s is available but I do wonder what changes (especially once Peggy McCay leaves). 

(I think one episode with Bonnie Bartlett is around)

I didn't accept many of the recasts in later years, but I adored Ellen Demming as Meta, Barbara Rodell as Leslie, Mart Hulswit as Ed, Maureen Garrett as Holly,  and several other golden oldies. Ellen Parker was by far the better Maureen, IMHO.

Jennifer Cooke, as the recast Morgan, was possibly the first replacement performer whom I disliked intensely (probably because by the time TPTB replaced Amanda, Alan, Justin, Alexandra, etc., I was barely watching the series and usually fast-forwarded through them, LOL).

Love of Life was fortunate in that both replacement Vanessas gained the audience's acceptance. It must have been jarring for most viewers, however, to see Audrey Peters assume the role on Vanessa's wedding day, of all days. If Susan Harney had replaced Jacquie Courtney on AW's 10th anniversary, the episode in which Steve and Alice got remarried, I would have had a fit.

@vetsoapfan I don't think the Vanessa - Bruce courtship was very long so the audience might have felt differently compared to the long awaited Alice-Steve union. If I recall correctly, Tomme only joined the show in January, 1959, with the wedding taking place in early April of the same year.  Though, the show later did wait to recast Cal Aleata until after her wedding to Rick Latimer. I believe Deborah Courteny played the bride and went off on the honeymoon and Roxanne Gregory assumed the role. I want to say this was in 1977. 

I've only read the weekly summaries of Jean Holloway's run, but they read horribly. The non-Bambi material isn't much better.  Timothy MacCauley was chaperoning dates for Ben and Betsy while Betsy was in the process of divorcing Eliot. Liane Wilson arrived as the first female intern at Rosehill Hospital. Ray Slater's large  family was introduced in mass with a father, mother, sister, and brother. Meg was in a relationship with Scott Carmichael, a business man who wanted no-strings attached sex. Under a more contemporary writer, some of this might have worked, but most of it just sounds to be on the border of parody. Ann Marcus dumps the Bambi story and offers Van a job at the college in the same week I think.

Shepherd Strudwick's papers are at the New York City Public Library and there are 34 items from "Love of Life" 1979-1980. I imagine there might be a script or two from Jean Holloway's time in there.    

I've read some of the  stuff that Hess did for "The Young Marrieds." He was a very literate and provocative writer. I am not surprised that the early years that he wrote for "Love of Life" are strong. 

11 hours ago, dc11786 said:

@vetsoapfan I don't think the Vanessa - Bruce courtship was very long so the audience might have felt differently compared to the long awaited Alice-Steve union. If I recall correctly, Tomme only joined the show in January, 1959, with the wedding taking place in early April of the same year.  Though, the show later did wait to recast Cal Aleata until after her wedding to Rick Latimer. I believe Deborah Courteny played the bride and went off on the honeymoon and Roxanne Gregory assumed the role. I want to say this was in 1977. 

I've only read the weekly summaries of Jean Holloway's run, but they read horribly. The non-Bambi material isn't much better.  Timothy MacCauley was chaperoning dates for Ben and Betsy while Betsy was in the process of divorcing Eliot. Liane Wilson arrived as the first female intern at Rosehill Hospital. Ray Slater's large  family was introduced in mass with a father, mother, sister, and brother. Meg was in a relationship with Scott Carmichael, a business man who wanted no-strings attached sex. Under a more contemporary writer, some of this might have worked, but most of it just sounds to be on the border of parody. Ann Marcus dumps the Bambi story and offers Van a job at the college in the same week I think.

Shepherd Strudwick's papers are at the New York City Public Library and there are 34 items from "Love of Life" 1979-1980. I imagine there might be a script or two from Jean Holloway's time in there.    

I've read some of the  stuff that Hess did for "The Young Marrieds." He was a very literate and provocative writer. I am not surprised that the early years that he wrote for "Love of Life" are strong. 

I wasn't necessarily referring to the implications of replacing an actress in the midst of a wedding, so much as simply replacing the leading actress of a show during any significant event. Recasting a performer on her character's wedding day, or during the heroine's final/deathbed appearance, or when she is reunited with loved ones after a long bout of amnesia, etc., would all be unfortunate choices to me. Emotionally, viewers want to see the faces we know and love play out the key, important moments on soaps.

I do agree with you that the Vanessa/Bruce courtship was probably not as important to the audience as the Steve/Alice wedding, which AW devotees had been obsessed with seeing for so many years. Still, if TBTB knew their leading lady was leaving the show, Love of Life should have scheduled the wedding to take place before Bonnie Bartlett departed, and then introduced Audrey Peters after the honeymoon.

Love of Life had made a miraculous turnaround just a few years earlier, under Claire Labine's creative genius, and had become must-see TV. To witness its collapse and falling into such a state of disrepair during the tenures of people like Holloway was painful. The soap did start to pick up again after Ann Marcus took over the writing reigns, but by that time, alas, it was too little, too late.

2 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

I wasn't necessarily referring to the implications of replacing an actress in the midst of a wedding, so much as simply replacing the leading actress of a show during any significant event. Recasting a performer on her character's wedding day, or during the heroine's final/deathbed appearance, or when she is reunited with loved ones after a long bout of amnesia, etc., would all be unfortunate choices to me. Emotionally, viewers want to see the faces we know and love play out the key, important moments on soaps.

I do agree with you that the Vanessa/Bruce courtship was probably not as important to the audience as the Steve/Alice wedding, which AW devotees had been obsessed with seeing for so many years. Still, if TBTB knew their leading lady was leaving the show, Love of Life should have scheduled the wedding to take place before Bonnie Bartlett departed, and then introduced Audrey Peters after the honeymoon.

Love of Life had made a miraculous turnaround just a few years earlier, under Claire Labine's creative genius, and had become must-see TV. To witness its collapse and falling into such a state of disrepair during the tenures of people like Holloway was painful. The soap did start to pick up again after Ann Marcus took over the writing reigns, but by that time, alas, it was too little, too late.

Bonnie Bartlett talked about that in her foundation interview.   This might have been why she was replaced so suddenly.

https://interviews.televisionacademy.com/interviews/bonnie-bartlett?clip=93106#show-clips

 

Seeing episodes with all three Van's, I think Audrey was the strongest performer of the three.  She had a maternal element, yet also seemed like someone that could push back if need be.

Peggy's Van seemed a pushover, while Bonnie's Van seemed more mature..but lacked a backbone.

30 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

Bonnie Bartlett talked about that in her foundation interview.   This might have been why she was replaced so suddenly.

https://interviews.televisionacademy.com/interviews/bonnie-bartlett?clip=93106#show-clips

She was earning a whopping $1,000.00 a week in 1959, which translates to $10,614.00 today.

It was incredibly stupid to pull a power play and screw that up. I'd fire her too, frankly, unless she could reign in her husband.

30 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

Seeing episodes with all three Van's, I think Audrey was the strongest performer of the three.  She had a maternal element, yet also seemed like someone that could push back if need be.

Peggy's Van seemed a pushover, while Bonnie's Van seemed more mature..but lacked a backbone.

I believe all three actresses who played Vanessa were capable enough, but I agree that Audrey Peters was the best/strongest of the bunch. It's appropriate that she stayed in the role the longest.

I can see what you are saying about important moments. I think this sounds almost unavoidable in this case. Bartlett sounds like she was prioriizing having a child over her career. By March, 1959, "Love of Life" would have been a half-hour for about a year, which is why I imagine her contract was up. I think the expansion to a half-hour also may have pushed out Jean McBride, who also left in 1958. I believe Paul Raven was written out in 1958 as well after the switch to a half hour. I'm wondering if the show expanded too soon. 

Labine and Mayer's work in 1973-1975 sounds pretty remarkable. I don't think much after them sounds overly appealing accept for maybe some elements of Gabrielle Upton's final months until the arrival of Ann Marcus. I am not sure if I would have felt that way in Marcus' second year with Tudi Wiggins' departure, but I thought the setup for Bruce and Vanessa in that last year with Amy Russell claiming she was Bruce's love child and ex-con Steve Harbach lusting after Vanessa seems to be there best stories in years. I like the Meg - Tom - Lianne mateiral. The Eliot-Betsy-Ben-Mia stuff is definitely overheated definitely not boring. Ray Slater is Sonny Corinthos of the 1970s and one could only hope he would be written out freeing Arlene to do anything else. The story abou Tony's son from his time in Vietnam was a story that Marcus had been trying to tell since "Love is A Many Splendored Thing." 

@Soaplovers Thanks. Those Paley interviews are so invaluable as they are full of details I never would have known otherwise. That was very reckless career behavior, even if Bonnie wanted off the show, but from what she said in her book that was a somewhat reckless period of their lives anyway.

It always seems odd to me that they took so long to bring back Meg, especially as she was such a huge part of the origin story of the series and then seems to be tied into the brief revitalization of the show in the mid 70s. 

1 hour ago, te. said:

It always seems odd to me that they took so long to bring back Meg, especially as she was such a huge part of the origin story of the series and then seems to be tied into the brief revitalization of the show in the mid 70s. 

I wonder if it is down to later writers and producers not knowing the history. Vanessa also seems to have started over as a character when she met Bruce. And LoL seemed to jump into the "youth" craze before any other soaps, hyper focusing on Bill and Tess.

Edited November 30, 20241 yr by DRW50

9 hours ago, te. said:

It always seems odd to me that they took so long to bring back Meg, especially as she was such a huge part of the origin story of the series and then seems to be tied into the brief revitalization of the show in the mid 70s. 

There were at least two attempts to bring back Meg in the 1960s that have been documented in books. In "From Mary Noble to Mary Hartman," there is a story outline for "Love of Life" from the early-to-mid 1960s from the time Phillip Holden as accused of harassing young women and/or when Kay was impersonating her dead sister Maggie Porter. There is a brief note in the monthly outlines that talks about Meg returning and openinga  real estate office. I feel like this may have been in late 1964. It was probably from Don Ettlinger if that is the case and he ended up leaving right around that time so maybe there was a postponment due to the writing change.  Instead, I believe Vanessa went into real estate. 

Later, under Robert Shaw or maybe under the brief period Winsor wrote, Meg was set to return in the late 1960s once Sarah Dale arrived in Rosehill after selling her house and moving in with Van and Bruce. Sarah was going to get sick and be on her death bed and Meg was going to return. Meg's return was scrapped though I believe Sarah returned and most of the story played out  the late sixties which included Bruce's emotional affair with a proposed character that eventually became Marsha Mason's Judith Cole. Some of this story seems to be used later when Meg actually does return. 

I think there are some other possible thoughts on why Meg didn't return. The set up of the "new" Vanessa in 1959 in Rosehill gave her two different female antagonists that provided Vanessa with persons functioning in a similar role to Meg. Vanessa's stepdaughter Barbara Sterling Latimer was a spoiled young woman much in the vein of Meg making impulsive moves and was not the best of mothers, or so I would assume, to her young son Hank Latimer. While a Meg / Barbara dynamic would have been appealing, I imagine they were deemed to similar in the way I imagine "The Secret Storm" never brought back Janet Hill once Belle Clemmons appeared on the scene even though her mother Valerie remained until the shows conclusion. Additionally, Vanessa's pseudo mother-in-law, Vivian Carlson, the mother of Bruce's first wife, Gaye, provided a similar type. Vivian was snobby society matron who wasn't always pleased with Vanessa's involvement with her grandchildren. That said, a Meg / Vivian dynamic where Meg became a surrogate daughter for Vivian based on the one she lost would have given a possible Meg / Bruce / Vanessa triangle a very different edge had Vivian been trying to mold Meg into the woman her late daughter Gaye had been and unintentionally, or intentionally, creating romantic interest in Meg on Bruce's part.

When Meg does return, Barbara has been off the canvas for several years and Vivian was brought back under Labine and Mayer but in a more limited capacity. It may also worth noting that Ben and Cal are added to the cast once Tess and Bill have left and there is a bit of a hole in the canvas. 

My other thought is that Roy Winsor may have rejected the earlier return because of his attempt to freshen up his shows in the mid-1960s. In one of the documents to the Averys when they were writing "Secret Storm," Winsor spoke of the success of moving "Love of Life" away from a small group of characters and focusing on the broader community of Rosehill almost in the way that some radio soap operas had central tent pole characters that reacted to the stories of those being weaved in and out of the story. 

16 hours ago, dc11786 said:

There were at least two attempts to bring back Meg in the 1960s that have been documented in books. In "From Mary Noble to Mary Hartman," there is a story outline for "Love of Life" from the early-to-mid 1960s from the time Phillip Holden as accused of harassing young women and/or when Kay was impersonating her dead sister Maggie Porter. There is a brief note in the monthly outlines that talks about Meg returning and openinga  real estate office. I feel like this may have been in late 1964. It was probably from Don Ettlinger if that is the case and he ended up leaving right around that time so maybe there was a postponment due to the writing change.  Instead, I believe Vanessa went into real estate. 

Thank you for the reminder. I remember reading through that book, and maybe even typing out those story projections...but it seems like so long ago now. It's a shame the plans for Meg never went through, although then they wouldn't have had Tudi Wiggins. I wonder who they might have cast.