I got through most of the 1987 material that was recently uploaded. November into December is very strong in the way soaps use to be really good when ending a long going storyline. It's fascinating to watch nearly half the cast gather in the waiting room of Corinth Hospital while others are at home awaiting news because Steve was so integrated into the cast. It's not really surprising to think that so many threads are abandoned (Cecilia, Ned) in the immediate aftermath because of the strength of the character. Also, this affirms my belief that Trucker becomes the poor man's Steve without the strong ties across the canvas. I cannot see Trucker's funeral generating this much genuine feeling emotion. 

The bank robbery is well staged. Hindmann is dragged out as resident cop to handle the hostage negotiations. At this point, John Danelle is one of the longer running actors even if he's only recurring. The tension across the street in the makeshift headquarters is mostly good except for the moments that lean into the theatrics (Harry belting "Getting our people out of there!" breaks the tension in a way I don't hink was intended). Steve's stoicism paired well with Stacey's fears for her child.

I was pleasantly surprised by all of the fake outs. When Steve covers Stacey and J.J., I figured one of the bank robbers were going to get up to shoot him again, but instead he just seemed unaware of the wound. Then, Steve is in the hospital and recovers before eventually succumbing. Watching live must have been a rollercoaster. I recognize that some of this is practical; the bank robbery needs to happen in November for sweeps and Johnson's contract isn't up until December. They certainly got their money's worth in the final days even having Johnson appear as a ghost to Trisha. 

I like Trisha and Steve, but their story becomes so overwrought with Steve's prison stint and Trisha's involvement with Nick Diantos. Maybe this all plays out better in the day to day, but the overall synopsis is usually pretty unappealing. I think a pregnant Cecilia having to cope with Steve being dead while cozied up to Rick Stewart would have propelled the story especially if Trisha decided she wanted access to Steve's child, which she really had no right to, but got the backing of the Aldens. It would have positioned Rick well and would have continued the story nicely without thrusting Trisha into a new romance. 

I appreciate how Steve's shooting is a true umbrella story that intersects with the B- and C- stories, even the ones I have little to know interest in. Jim recovering fragments of his memory during all of this was a calculated move that works well especially when Shana finds Jim praying for Steve in the church chapel. These two (Shana and Jim) are well positioned with Jim's memory returning just as Shana has learned she was pregnant. I think she miscarries this baby, right? Jimmy is born later, or is this the same pregnancy? I think this works better than what was going on with Shana and Jim's conflict over her return to Alden, at least in the little I've seen. I could see Jim fearing that Shana's return to the corporate world would have brought out a harder Shana, like the one who initially came to Corinth. To be fair, in October, 1987, Jim probably doesn't remember this version so we are left with the more generic conflict. I don't love what actually follows this for Jim and Shana, but the potential in December, 1987, is awesome. 

Similar, I have no horse in the race involving the Harry / Gwyn / Anne love triangle. Harry was introduced as a fairly repugnant man who had kidnapped and nearly raped Shana while also threatening to kill multiple people. I think it would have been worht exploring the bank robbers having a connection to someone else on the canvas. My initial thought was Cecilia, having one of the robbers living at the boarding house and Cece using him to make Rick jealous, but now I wonder if they shouldn't have tied the robbers to Harry and his criminal past. Something that would have given the story a little more legs. Callan White is adequate at showing Anne's internal torment at wanting to be there for Harry, but not being able to get past her own pain.

Gwyn is too good for this as was evidenced by her July, 1987, scenes where Rick confronts her about being his mother, which showcase the emotional force that Christine Tudor is. Those scenes reminded me of Tudor-Newman's final performance as Gwyn confessing her crimes to Steffi while being raw emotionally. Gwyn's fear that she will be caught is delightful and the fact that no one even picked Tudor-Newman up for another role is criminal. I would even have settled for one of Goutman's villain on the months that were so common on the last half-decade of "As the World Turns." 

During Gwyn and Rick's confrontation, an alternate route for Rick's paternity formed in my mind when Gwyn suggested that Rick's father had died in the Vietnam War. I think it would have been messy as anything if the show had made Mike Donovan Rick's father instead of Clay. Rick as Mike's son by Gwyn would have impacted not only Gwyn and Rick, but would have drawn in Mike's former lovers Shana and Anne as well as his friend Jim and sister Stacey. Obviously, you couldn't do Stacey and Rick down the line (which is fine because most of Rick's story should have gone to Curtis anyway), but I think there was a way to easily enhance the Harry, Anne, and Gwyn material if it was Mike who oversaw the hostage crisis with Harry blaming Mike's tactics for what happened while Anne cozies up to Mike, while Rick seeks Shana's legal advice on tracking down his father as Jim starts to get more of his memory back. Gwyn having had Mike's child would have deepened the Shana and Anne relationship by giving them a true common enemy. 

Anyway, back to reality, I am not sure how I feel about flip flopping Cecilia out and Lily into the Amourelle model role, though Cece never was officially named to the position. If it was Curtis and Lily wanting Lily in the modeling role, I would be more interested. I could see Curtis wanting to tap into Lily's more integrated personality that once included a very promiscious side that he was drawn to (I would have killed Lotty off at Eban Japes' wedding shoot out). Curtis guiding Lily would have reignited the old conflict between Jack and Curtis, which would have made more sense and, again, added another chance for story interaction for Anne-Gwyn. 

Most of the Stacey - Jack - Lily material is also very strong. Something I really appreciated in the fragments we are getting is that the writers lean into Lily's childhood abuse in ways I didn't expect. It would be easy to write this story as an old flame comes back to rekindle what once was. There is more at stake for Lily than just that. As an abuse survivor, there have been very few times she has felt romantically safe with someone, which is one of the reasons she talks about with Jack. This is also why having Curtis more involved would have given a nice layer to all of this as Curtis also had a brief romantic history with Stacey. I could see Curtis being drawn to Lily and Lily being repulsed by Curtis because of her involvement with one of her alters (though I don't think he was aware what was going on when he was first with her). I think Curtis and Lily may have slept together in 1983, but I'm not sure Lily adn Jack did. This would be something that could have been explored much more. 

I don't mind Britt Helfer's Lily. She clearly isn't Jennifer Ashe, but she does seem to lean into the lost quality of Lily more than I expected. There is definitely an ongoing sense that we are suppose to be questioning how well Lily really is and I think Helfer, on occassion, presents that well. When Lily visits Stacey after the robbery, she has a very nice little speech about wanting something that she was trying to explain to Stacey which the clear subtext is she is referring to Jack and herself but covers by saying she is speaking about Trisha and Steve. It's fairly well done in my opinion. 

The crossover content in the Lily / Jack / Stacey situation with the Anne / Harry stuff is nicely done. Anne is clearly uneasy about how Jack has duped Stacey the way Harry has duped her and it seems to be present Anne as a crucible that should explode at any minute and reveal Jack's secret. I have to wonder if Anne ever compares Jack to Roger with the extramarital activity. 

In some of the smaller flashes, I can definitely see how Ralph Ellis is replaying his earlier material. I always thought that April Hathaway, teen prostitute, was more Agnes Nixon trying to retell the Donna Beck story, but the more I think about April's background, April is a younger Jenny Deacon from Ellis' "Search for Tomorrow." Jenny, like April, was a prostitute who has a child; Jenny gave her daughter up while April aborted her baby. In both cases, the child's father was dead. Steve Fletcher's Alan Howard is such an odd villain. None of it works for me. I have to wonder if Teri Polo's Kristen Larson was a poor imitation of Search's Kristen Carter. Not that we've seen a whole lot of her, but Polo's Kristen seems like a very underdeveloped character. 

The Ava / Clay parachuting plane crash seems to be a bit of a replay of Warren / Suzi / Brian's plane crash. Some of the dialogue seems very familiar, but maybe I'm wrong. 

I'm not thrilled with Ava and Clay as a couple. I think Ava coming into money and position through an older man is appealing. The scenes where Ava is with the society woman and is embarassed by Kate was something I would like to have seen more of. I did think Roya Megnot did very well at highlighting all the shades of Ava's personality with Steve's death by equally loving Steve "like a brother" and wanting to use her newfound clout to provide a hero's funeral for Steve, which felt like the perfect balance of Ava's love for Steve as well as her own selfish desire to be in the spoitlight and elevate her own family. Trisha calling it out is delicious, but having a competent Curtis around to stroke Ava's ego would have been even richer. It was nice to see Harry call out Ava because I can believe Ava growing up with Steve like a brother and aging into a position where she despised his lot in life. I think Ava even says something along the lines of I regret the things I didn't say to him, and I thought that was a very powerful line. I am also assuming part of Ava's emotional makeup in these sequences involves guilt as I imagine she is the one who stole the itinerary from Shana, or is that incorrect?

Another Harry moment that was delightful was seeing hypocrite extraordinaire Jack Forbes rip into Harry for the way Harry was two-timing Jack's mother. I do hope that when the truth about Lily and Jack comes out, that Harry calls Jack out for the egotistical jerk he can be. While I can totally believe that Steve saving Jack's wife and son could be a life flashign moment for Jack, there still needs to be a lot of work done by Jack, which he doesn't seem interested in doing.  

Another couple random thoughts: Steve and Trisha's gun toting wedding guests are too much. I'm sure there are some that find Eban Japes humorous, but I find him such a base individual who doesn't really generate the interest the writers think he does. Cecilia getting shot just after her miscarriage seems to be overkill especially since it didn't stop Steve and Trisha's marriage. Cutting Eban and the Lotty / Curtis story was a smart move. Cutting the April / Ned story was even smarter. I do think there may have been a missed opportunity with Marty, the alcoholic. I believe June Slater died in March or April, 1987, after her years of drinking. It might have been worth having Lily intervene with the situation as a way of broadening Lily's involvement in the canvas as well as having Anne, in recovery, also attempting to help her. 

I'm genuinely surprised that Ned is still around in December. Perry started in February which means his contract would have had an out around the time Judith Hoag left. I can see keeping Ned at the garage if that was still going to be a thing, but all of Steve's secondary characters fall off almost immediately. I wonder if Ned even gets an exit scene. 

Kate's daughter Sherry having given birth at Ava's November wedding gives Sherry a good out for missing her cousin's funeral, even if it isn't specifically stated onscreen. 

I think Cabot and Isabelle leave for a bit after Cabot's trial. I wonder if this was one of the reasons they dropped Kelly as they were watching over her. Not that Kelly Conway was someone worth investing time and energy on, but she was the most connected of the 1987 younger set, though its Dave Hindman, the illiterate basketball player, who ends up last several years on and off on recurring. 

I'll be curious to see if anything else pops up. 

2 hours ago, dc11786 said:

These two (Shana and Jim) are well positioned with Jim's memory returning just as Shana has learned she was pregnant. I think she miscarries this baby, right? Jimmy is born later, or is this the same pregnancy? 

Shana miscarries this baby after a patented soap opera fall down a flight of stairs, which leads to her and Jim divorcing (pointlessly, IMO, since they end up getting remarried less than a year later). Jimmy is born off screen, between Shana's two runs on the show.

 

2 hours ago, dc11786 said:

Something I really appreciated in the fragments we are getting is that the writers lean into Lily's childhood abuse in ways I didn't expect. It would be easy to write this story as an old flame comes back to rekindle what once was. There is more at stake for Lily than just that. As an abuse survivor, there have been very few times she has felt romantically safe with someone, which is one of the reasons she talks about with Jack. 

This really struck me as well. I thought that the conversation she and Jack have when she's considering whether to pursue the modeling contract was particularly strong, with her articulating that her trauma (both her abuse by her father and the more recent incident where a date beats her up) makes her afraid of being objectified or doing anything that could invite attention to herself. I wonder if Jack ever expresses any insight regarding how he's pushing her into this in order to give her a consolation prize to make himself feel less guilty about cutting her loose.

29 minutes ago, Kane said:

This really struck me as well. I thought that the conversation she and Jack have when she's considering whether to pursue the modeling contract was particularly strong, with her articulating that her trauma (both her abuse by her father and the more recent incident where a date beats her up) makes her afraid of being objectified or doing anything that could invite attention to herself. I wonder if Jack ever expresses any insight regarding how he's pushing her into this in order to give her a consolation prize to make himself feel less guilty about cutting her loose.

Some of the scripts from this period are very well done compared to others I've seen around this time. There are layers to some of the material that I haven't seen before. The conversation you are referencing was very powerful and a deep insight to how Lily still saw herself as attracting the danger. The scenes with Jack and the detective were also thought provoking regarding Lily's intent with going to the bar. I didn't question Lily's intent myself, but I thought how what was going on could have blown up and led to an investigation where Jack and Lily's affair came to the surface. Nowadays, Lily and Jack would just have to go to a Coldplay concert. 

I also noticed that some of this Lily / Jack setup is repeated in 1991 for the Dinahlee / Jack story, which I don't know if it was intentional or not. Dinahlee stays with Jack and the kids when Stacey is out of town (most likely visiting someone) and that's how the "seduction" occurs. 

Someone else (I believe it was @Soaplovers) mentioned that they wish there had been a more equal playing field for Lily and Stacey rather than Stacey and Jack clearly being endgame. I think there was an opportunity to explore mental health issues with Stacey after the robbery. Part trauma from the event and part survivor's guilt, I could Stacey becoming increasingly unwound, which I think would have placed Lily in the position of either trying to help her friend and or take advantage of that situation. It would have been even more wild if Stacey had become paranoid and assumed Lily and Jack were having an affair, when it had been called off, and they were simply sneaking around figuring out how to best handle Stacey. Jack having to rectify whether to call out Stacey's paranoia or to acknowledge the possibiity that Stacey had been picking up on their closeness all along and needing to accept his part in Stacey's unravelling. 

At the end of Ralph Ellis' SFT run in 1982, he started to do some psychological games between Rusty Sentell and his daughter-in-law, Liza, which was never completely played out to its natural conclusion. It was fairly well done so I think Ellis could have pulled off something similar (maybe having Jack downplay his closeness with Lily). With that said, I find Stacey's madness in 1992-1993 one of my least favorite Stacey stories.

Off topic, I had never seen the house Trisha and Steve shared, but it looks like it is similar to Ava and Paul's house in 1991-1992. I doubt its the same location in story, but the set seems to be very similar. 

1 hour ago, dc11786 said:

Off topic, I had never seen the house Trisha and Steve shared, but it looks like it is similar to Ava and Paul's house in 1991-1992. I doubt its the same location in story, but the set seems to be very similar. 

Parts of that set also turn up in the remodeled version of The Tides.

@dc11786 I was so looking forward to your thoughts on these clips and episodes. I wouldn't have even considered the comparisons to Ellis' Search work as I have not watched most of it. I suppose both he and Nixon would have common ground in their takes on that prostitute trope. 

You are absolutely right that many of these stories would have improved with Curtis' involvement. Maybe he was just too complicated for them to write. 

I love the idea of Rick being Mike Donovan's son. They never do much of anything with Clay being his father anyway. 

As @Kane mentioned, Shana falls down the stairs. This episode has a flashback.

I do wonder what the pre-strike plans would have been for Shana and Jim. Did SOD do spring previews at that time? I wonder what they would have been for most of the stories. By that point they'd already brought in Mark Pinter, who is a charisma void in most of his roles, so that wasn't a great start. 

I have never quite connected to the Lily recast, so I'm going to need to watch some of the scenes you kindly pointed out to help me understand her more. It would have helped if they hadn't written her out by the end of the year instead of trying to develop her. 

I wonder if they had Cecilia shot as well as miscarrying was to have viewers feel sorry for her, which just makes me wonder even before if Colleen Dion abruptly left.

The mention of the strong little scenes makes me think of the scene where Ava quietly says goodbye to the boarding house right before she gets married. Roya and a subtle presentation help you to forget Ava had already "escaped" that place twice before with rich men, but it's also some good dramatic irony for when we learn she isn't even marrying a real Alden.

One moment I like in the clips from right before the wedding is Alex showing support to "Annie" over not wanting to attend the ceremony due to Harry. The story of Alex being much nicer or nastier to certain members of the family than Clay always interests me. I wonder if Ann even has much interaction with the real Clay before she leaves Corinth.

These old Ava/Alex clips take place in the 1987 material.

 

@Kane After I typed, it dawned on me that the fireplace was more than likely included in my "Trucker is Temu Steve" theory even going as far as putting Trucker and Trisha in a recreation of Steve and Trisha's home, though I wonder if anyone even remembered that the set had once belonged to Trisha and Steve. Also, during this period, Trucker bought the garage. A more astute writer could have really delved into those parallels and potentially laid the groundwork prior having Trisha push Trucker into buying the garage and redecorating the house with someone like Stacey noting how much it looks like her home with Steve. 

Slightly off topic, but I much preferred the more rustic hunting lodge layout of the original Tides in late 1991 than the modern contemporary 90s Ashley Furniture look of 1992. The original had such character and the redesign was very generic, which is funny because I thought the layout of Ava and Paul's house stood out. 

@DRW50 I've only seen the tailend of Ellis' "Search." I'd be curious if I saw any comparison if I watched what was available of his work on "The Doctors" in 1980. Something that Ellis had done well on "Search" was crafting a younger set so the failure of Ned / April is very disappointing. 

I initially disagreed with your assessment of Curtis being too complicated, but given further thought, I think you might be right in the sense that Curtis of 1987 had changed so much since the Curtis fo 1983. His edges had been dulled a bit, while Jack seemed to a bit sharper. It would have been interesting if it was Curtis and Lotty who took Lily in at the behest of Gwyn hoping that Curtis would choose the more socially prominent Lily despite everyone in Corinth knowing her own complicated past. Jack immediately assuming that Curtis' intentions are less than noble and revisiting Curtis and Lily's history with Curtis eventually confessing to Lotty that he feels he needs Lily's forgiveness because he felt he exploited her illness; even though he was unaware at the time. You could even have an early Gwyn taking Lily under her wing to build up her confidence. 

I believe that June Slater had died in the weeks preceding Lily's return. Jack and Stacey could have asked June to settle the estate and would have had Jack offer to help her sell the house. I think going through the things would have been a chance for Lily and Jack to relive the past in the sort of soft gothic tone that daytime occassionally does well with them revisiting the horrible history between Lily and her father and how Lily wants to move forward but seems so stunted by her past. 

Curtis would have picked up on the tension between Jack and Lily, but people would assume that Curtis was jealous. With enough people saying this, tension could build in Lotty and Curtis' marriage. I think I would even had a manipulative Gwyn (much earlier in the story) ask Lily to play piano at Curtis and Lotty's wedding at the mansion just to stir up the trouble. The only person who I think would agree with Curtis would be Ava, which would lead to Ava seeking out opportunities to catch Jack and Lily in the act in order to delight in Jack cheating on Stacey the way he cheated on her with Stacey. This would, in turn, would be fueled subtly by Gwyn who would think that Ava is beneath Clay. 

Curtis's marriage to Lotty would have unravelled by not only Lotty's insecurities about Curtis / Lily but because Gwyn kept nagging Lotty about how Eban Japes' wedding shootout ruined Trisha's wedding day. No longer able to stand it all, Lotty would be the one to discover the truth about Gwyn and Rick's connection and reveal it to everyone at Ava and Clay's rehearsal dinner or engagement party with the second act of Gwyn's story being who the father of Rick is. Curtis and Lotty would call it quits when Lorna, who would visit at Christmas, would invite her friend to come live with her abroad.  

Eventually, after the affair, I would have liked to see Lily try to rebuild her life. I would have her be more independent by finding a quieter job, like she did at the community/homeless shelter with Jim Vochek, but also returning to Alden University as a student to study psychology. Curtis, now single, would attempt to build a life outside the Alden realm through Harry's casino but become addicted to gambling while becoming involved with a newly single Stacey. Lily would learn about Curtis' gambling and try to help, while Jack fought to reunite with Stacey. 

The more I think about it, Rick as Mike's son would just add some really nice layers of tension and push for Mike's return which would build up the Donovan crew. I have to admit, a Mike and Gwyn dalliance in their youth would have been a rewrite, but if it was framed the right way (a one-night stand between a very drunk and frightened Mike shortly before being shipped out and Gwyn, Anne Alden's childhood pal, growing closer to her brother Clay and wanting nothing to do with her working class roots) it would be passable, but still evoke some (well earned) complaints. 

Cecilia's shooting may have been part of a redemption arc as she seems to be less of an interloper in those final weeks and more of a solid B- or C- character who is trying to carve out a new life for herself. Cece as Ava's pal, Kate's boarder, the Amourelle model, Steve's ex, and Rick's girlfriend positions her well on the canvas. I think she should have been given more time and been allowed to carry Steve's child to term. 

Thanks for sharing the flashback to Shana's miscarriage. If they were considering having Jim return to the Church, I could see how Shana's very over the top miscarriage could be framed as a major hurdle with some suggesting that Jim may have caused the accident to release himself from his marriage or Shana guilting  Jim into staying after causing the loss. Instead, there is more spy garbage isn't there? Peter Davies is a very strong, quiet presence, which I think works better for a character like Shana as the one who got away and who would intimidate the weak willed men that Shana would attract as a strong woman dominating her male companions. 

Ava seems fairly self aware, and a bit over the top, in a lot of the material in this era in ways that are wonderful and occassionally cringe. Ava's justification when Clay offers the pre-nup being that she had walked away from Curtis and Jack without the family jewels was both on point and a wild way to approach the outrageous marital history of Ava. Her saying goodbye, again, to the boarding house feels right. In my ALT Loving of 1987, I would even have Ava buy the Slater home at a bargain price without even considering the role the murder and Garth's abuse played in the asking price with the Aldens being mortified by Ava's crude decision. Of course, I would have Gwyn be the first to arrive at Ava's housewarming to snicker.   

Thanks @Search For Yesterday for posting this episode from July, 1988. It's clearly a strike episode even if you didn't check the credits. So many characters and stories going on in a single episode there is very little time for the material to breath. With that said, there are a few nice beats. 

Jim and Lily's conversation at the homeless shelter about her previous love for music and how it hurt her. This is another opportunity where the show delved into part of her past in a way that was very reflective. I think placing Lily in a space with a woman who had been abused (Mei Ling) and her son was a smart move. It was a nice reset for Lily, though she doesn't last much longer. 

Jim and Shana's reflection on Shana's miscarriage and how both had thought about what it would be like had the child lived as well as it's impact on Jim's faith were nice, but underdeloped. 

Ava's miscarriage happens so quickly its hard to really get a sense of purpose.

The dream sequence with Jeff and Trisha was silly, but Noelle Beck played her anger well. I like Scott Feraco and his version of Jeff. All this "Image" stuff with Egypt isn't for me. I don't hate Gwyn / Jeff, but the material doesn't really pop the way you would hope. 

Ron Nummi plays Rick well. I'm now seeing how having Jack, the non-Alden raised as part of the family, against Rick, the Alden not raised by the family, had potential beyond just fighting over Stacey. I still don't like where Rick is in the fall with the material (already scheming) similar to Jeff (who quickly becomes unhinged with the quick recasts). Rick and Stacey's scenes were nice, and I'm not a huge Rick / Stacey fan. 

I think it dawned on me what my issue is with Egypt. She comes off as the latest in a long line of women of a similar type on this show, the Southern comic relief. It started with Rita Mae Bristow, and then it was Dolly Jones, then Lotty Bates, and now Egypt. Mostly all played by talented actresses, the type isn't for me. Rita Mae had the best potential when Marland paired her in a younger man relationship with Tony Perilli. 

https://archive.org/details/ABC-daytime-07-15-88/Loving+1988-07-15.mp4

 

 

A scene with Lotty/Ned (with Eban popping in at the end) at about 11 minutes.

They also put up a cast crawl in one of their 12/28/87 tapes, with Luke Perry still in the credits.

Found on Facebook today: Robert Tyler (when he was known as Barry Kaufman) modeling for JCPenney. The guy next to him is not Roger Howarth, but it kind of looks like him.

 

Robert Tyler/Bary Kaufman was such a beautiful man. One of the most beautiful men (for me) in daytime.

7 minutes ago, chrisml said:

Robert Tyler/Bary Kaufman was such a beautiful man. One of the most beautiful men (for me) in daytime.

I'll drink to that! He even made the "Regular Guy Look" somewhat presentable.

 

 

2 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 

Thanks @DRW50 I love the catchy soapy music in these promos. Makes me feel nostalgic.

9 hours ago, Maxim said:

Thanks @DRW50 I love the catchy soapy music in these promos. Makes me feel nostalgic.

Oh it's wonderful. I was about to reply to @alwaysAMC about it in another thread. That drum intro and the "THINK ABOUT IT!" never leave your head.