The way I had read it I assumed Lily's incest story was dropped altogether--I'm glad it at least got some sort of payoff in the court scenes. the first year or half year of Loving seems very good to me--a good mix of old school AMC (which I think was part of Agnes Nixon's concept for creating it--and may have been its undoing as no one really wanted early 70s style AMC as a soap by then) with some of Marland's trademarks.

For those who didn't know, it probably seemed like Lily's story ran it's course. Lily revealed to Jack that daddy raped her and they ran off together. Garth had the police track them down and suddenly Lily's other side, Trista, emerged and flirted with Curtis Alden. During sweeps, Garth ended up dead and the police walked in to find Jack holding the gun that killed Garth. Anyway, Jack was arrested for the crime, and Trista emerged and went on the run with Curtis to New York City. Lorna was determined to track down some petty thug, who had robbed the Slater home the night of the murder. Lorna dated him to get information from him hoping to free her brother. People were looking for Lily because she was in the room at the time and saw the murder happen. Lily returned to Cornith and freed Jack with her testimony. During the trial, Trista emerged and told off part of the audience. Trista promised Curtis that she was going to remain in power and that they would have a life together. Once June revealed she was the killer, June and Lily left town for Lily to receive psychiatric therapy. Jack, and probably the audience, were led to believe that Lily might return to him. In the meantime, Jack decided to look into his parentage and met Ava at Forbes Construction and so the story goes.

The first months of "Loving" was so disjointed. Characters were tested with one another romantically without any followup. Plot threads would play out for a couple of weeks and fail to develop.

It does seem in the 90s, with Addie Walsh and then Agnes writing in a way they returned to this style--the show at least seems more like the very early Loving I've seen in feel in those 93-94 eps than the 1987 Loving clips here (when one of the writers was Amy Lippman who went on to create Party of Five).

The 1987 clip is from Ralph Ellis, who was Nixon's successor. I don't know when Ellis started, but he was there at least Sept 1987 (the date of this clip) until the beginning of the Writer's Strike in April/May 1988. Taggert and King were hired to write the post-strike episodes. Overall, Loving was never able to find a head writer who could really give the show a strong group of characters to work with. I feel like Marland left the show in good shape in 1985, but Nixon's follow up was so vastly different from Marland's style that it simply didn't work. Marland had such a rich executive set with Alden Enterprises and its subdivisions Amourelle and Burnell's. Nixon really isn't a business stories kind of writer so this left her in a bit of a bind. Lorna and Linc seemed farcical dealing with Linc's secret wife Zona (the name alone was too much) and her fake pregnancy. The hooker with a heart of gold (Dolly) was too dated a concept by then to really work. Nixon was able to coast off the baby switch plotline for some time with Ava/Jack/Stacey/Curtis, but, other than that, most of the work seemed so bizarre.

What I think worked in 1993-1994 was that Nixon made the canvas work rather than installing what she thought it needed to make it work. She repaired Ava and Alex, put Trucker in a triangle with Dinah and Curtis, kept Steffi/Casey/Ally/Coop front burner, and create compelling stories based on what was there. Nixon was much more suited for the stories the show was telling then.

Walsh really wasn't there long either time. Maybe six months in 1992 and another six to eight months in 1994-1995. Taggert was the show's writer in the 1990s. She wrote 1988-1991 with King and 1992-1993 with Guza (and briefly solo). Somewhere in there you had brief stints by Mary Ryan Munisteri and unofficial headwriter Haidee Granger.

Ralph Ellis wrote for ATWT in the late 70s, didn't he, I think he used to write with Eugenie Hunt?

I wonder if Agnes did the split personality bit because she wanted Lily to be like Viki on OLTL. Fragile daughter of a cold man who abuses her, has a wild side manifested in an alter. It's interesting, as Viki, many years later, was revealed as being an incest survivor, although I know Agnes had nothing to do with that storyline. I saw a Daytime Dilemma promo which featured Lily's alter, although I don't know if it's still on Youtube.

Here are a few other promos:

Who are these two people in this promo? Is that Dinah Lee?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wkyX5jvqUc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In0X-vcicxs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzNyKanOFSA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrMAkX7tmRw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqMbwWwBfKw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oRNXrvcLGE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQVoMahLF58&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E_apWDzY2M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPqwqy5XKgM&feature=related

Start an affair with Trisha...er...Loving...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjWFKA9oQ-A&feature=related

Dinahlee and Curtis (Patrick T. Johnson).

Oh, that was one of the Curtis recasts. I forgot how many times he was recast.

I had also forgotten Gwyn and Buck were once involved.

Yeah that was shortly before the original Curtis returned, under Nixon, as Dante's "pet"

For those who didn't know, it probably seemed like Lily's story ran it's course. Lily revealed to

The 1987 clip is from Ralph Ellis, who was Nixon's successor. I don't know when Ellis started, but he was there at least Sept 1987 (the date of this clip) until the beginning of the Writer's Strike in April/May 1988. Taggert and King were hired to write the post-strike episodes. Overall, Loving was never able to find a head writer who could really give the show a strong group of characters to work with. I feel like Marland left the show in good shape in 1985, but Nixon's follow up was so vastly different from Marland's style that it simply didn't work. Marland had such a rich executive set with Alden Enterprises and its subdivisions Amourelle and Burnell's. Nixon really isn't a business stories kind of writer so this left her in a bit of a bind. Lorna and Linc seemed farcical dealing with Linc's secret wife Zona (the name alone was too much) and her fake pregnancy. The hooker with a heart of gold (Dolly) was too dated a concept by then to really work. Nixon was able to coast off the baby switch plotline for some time with Ava/Jack/Stacey/Curtis, but, other than that, most of the work seemed so bizarre.

So is that youtube creditless episode of Jack and Stacey's rehearsal dinner from 86 under Nixon?

Yeah that was shortly before the original Curtis returned, under Nixon, as Dante's "pet"

First, Patrick T. Johnson was fired and replaced by Michael Lord, who was playing Curtis for less than two months when Curtis and Dinahlee married and by the fall Michael Lord had been fired after Curtis torched PINS with fauxLouie inside several weeks before Louie was killed off. When Dante popped up in November, he then made reference to his pet, who turned out to be Curtis and Chris Marcantel returned to the show in December after being off the serial for almost eight years. Marcantel, by the way, is working behind the scenes on "Gotham."

I had also forgotten Gwyn and Buck were once involved.

Let's not forget that Gwyn was going to spawn Buck's offspring. Thankfully, Taggert aborted that plot, literally, right before she left or Nixon mended that very early on.

So is that youtube creditless episode of Jack and Stacey's rehearsal dinner from 86 under Nixon?

Agnes takes credit for Jonathan Maitland's pact with the devil which came to a climax in December 1985. The rehearsal dinner was from February 1986. It's possible Ellis took over, but I don't think Ellis came aboard until later. No proof however. Nixon returned to AMC in summer 1987, so its likely she left Loving around that time.

Did you think any of the non-Marcantel Curtises were any good?

So Gwyn had an abortion? That's interesting. You don't see many of those on soaps unless it's from rape.

From SOW July 96

The ABC affiliate in Dallas has moved the The City to a late night timeslot.As of June 10th,The City airs at 12.35 am,on a same day delay.

ABC suggested the change,says WFAA Program Director David Walther.

"Some days it actually performs better than it did in the earlier time period.It's not doing any worse.We've either maintained audience or gained some".

Before the switch,WFAA aired only a half hour of the now defunct Mike & Maty show,from 10.00-10.30 am,then The City from 10.30-11.00am.However,Walther adds,'the network asked us to consider carrying the full hour of Caryl & Marilyn,and to accommodate that,their next suggestion was that we consider moving The City to what we call 'late fringe' area replacing a rebroadcast of the 10pm newscast."

Dallas is the nation's 8th largest TV market.

Kansas City KMBC has also moved The City to 2.05 am to make way for the full hour of Caryl & Marilyn.The City's ratings have benefited from the change.When it aired at 11.30 am it averaged a 1.4/5-at 2.05 am it averages 2.6/30.

KMBC is No 30 in market size.

Gwyn miscarried, I didn't mean an induced abortion.

Marcantal and Ashby were good in the episodes I've seen.

I forgot Linden Ashby was in the role. He's very handsome but always a bit bland. I guess it worked out well for he and Susan Walters though.

I wish another show had hired Christine Tudor. She probably isn't even acting anymore.

I didn't have a history with Curtis but I admit as a horny young gay teen I found Mercantal an odd fit--he just isn't as soap opera handsome as I guess I expected--in hindsight though I see what a good actor he was and the show was already doing really well with male eye candy by this time (I still think Trucker, who disappeared from acting pretty soon after--is the best looking of rhte cliche "romance novel cover guys" on any soap of the time)

Near the end of Loving, they had the brief story where Neal turned out to be Gwyn's father. I think we just saw her reaction and not much else, as she was revealed as the killed not long afterwards. Was that a story set up before the show was canceled and they just had to wrap it up? I wish we'd gotten more of it.

I sometimes wonder if the characters they had sent to The City had been stronger, if the show might have lasted. Perhaps not, the show may never have had a chance, and the writing issues on The City didn't help, but Tony always got on my nerves and I was never entirely sure why they gave him so much airtime. Richard was OK I guess. I did like Danny and Ally. Alex was fine but never quite the same without Ava.

I watched very heavily back then and don't even remember Neal

I dunno, I actually think the last 6 months of City were *very* good (this was Spring 1997 and at the time I felt my other shows--AMC and OLTL were slipping while City was finally improving--it actually was the only one of ABC's shows to have ratings gains week to week too, albeit tiny ones and the show's cancelation was already a done deal). OK Tony wasa bit one note but by the alst few months I liked nearly all the characters--I much prefered Angie on City to Loving as well where she never really felt part ofthe canvas tome.

Neal was a chef, he was played by the superb Larry Haines. He had a little seen romance with Ava's mother and then near the end of Loving he told Gwyn he was her biological father.

I thought the last 6 months of The City had some good moments. I loved the fake Qs Tracy hired. I loved her sparring with Carla. Tess's cancer was OK. The Tony/Ally/Carla/Danny stuff didn't do a lot for me. I liked seeing more of Angie but all that about her baby woe I could have done without. I felt like they were always trying to find their footing with Angie on both Loving and The City -- I wonder what the racism story might have amounted to if it hadn't been truncated.

She did have a gorgeous wedding to Jacob (I still want a Jacob/Jesse scene someday), and I liked her rivalry with Lorraine. That actress was one of a kind, I wish she got more work.

Edited December 31, 200915 yr by CarlD2