Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[Sylph]

I hated that interview. And I hate it when she comes off all "diplomatic". Please. Tell the truth, you don't need to be vulgar and offensive to say so. It verges on hipocrisy at times.

I also loved it how she hated Bill Bell and he always beat her in the ratings and all.

[EricMontreal22]

I think it's a great interview even if I dislike some of the interviewer's questions (Agnes seems, in her polite way, annoyed by her which i love). It doesn't put me to sleep like Bill Bell's one does

BUT I do agree that just once I'd like to see Agnes drop her veneer and say completely honestly what she thinks. Maybe she has a tell all in a vault somewhere to be published when she passes away. That said I think you can tell when she likes someone or not by what she says and her expression, but I've wasted tons of hours watching her lol. And she and Bill Bell always had a lot of respect for each other (though it'd annoye me the way he refers to her as Aggie in his condescending way ) you're obviously projecting, Sylph (Besides when Agnes was in charge her shows routinely beat out Bill's, not to mention he co wrote the first disastrous year of AW which she famously turned around )

SFK I actually agree re college. I got the feeling Agnes wanted Loving to be like AMC was in the 70s and, with the hour change, big business angles etc was losing track of, but with a college basis. Of course by the time third writer Ralph Ellis came in it too was all about Alden Enterprises, etc, which again added to a loss of identity.

I wish that promo of Agnes talking about Loving would be reposted--I just found it so funny like Agnes basically trying to convey how the show will be with ABC in the background trying to make it sound liek this Big Sexy Action Packed Soap! You can tell there was some awkward mix there (but obviously Marland seems to have agreed more, at least at first, with Agnes' plan. When he left and she came in the show did become a bit more sex and meldramatic--maybe he left because that's what the networks asked for?)

[SFK]

You know, the interviewer is Connie P. aka Marlena DeLacroix. Agnes does get a little short from time to time, like, "Honey, I don't remember... Okay, you're asking me three different things at once..." and I love how her eyes dart over to her assistant/daughter or whoever at some of the names brought up, like, "And who the HELL was that??"

And I would love to read a juicy posthumous autobio, but I kind of feel like that was the main purpose of launching her website, her life in her words. But man, the autobio sure would be icing.

[EricMontreal22]

I know, I'm hoping she won't read my post *grin* But yeah you can tell she's censoring her thoughts some--to be fair I think this is one way she got so far. She's not a Bill Bell type man, and she worked in a different time than Irna Phillips when networks had more control--Agnes' way of being wasvery savvy to get her and give her the control she wanted.

[Paul Raven]

From SOD July 1990

Who Killed Rick Alden?

Loving plots a chilling murder mystery with 7 hot suspects.

After seven years on the air,ABC's low rated serial Loving is hoping 4 words-Who killed Rick Alden?-will finally be the key to ratings success.So far,the show has tried all kinds of story gimmicks-from spoiled priests to spy-fi-without making a dent in the ratings. However,the shows new top gun,Exec Producer Jackie Babbin,thinks a good old fashioned corpse might just be what's needed to get the ailing soap on its feet.

On July 9,resident sleazeball Rick Alden(Brian Fitzpatrick)bit the dust,leaving a juicy trail of suspects in his wake. His ex-lover Stacey will now stand trial for murder,and even her own relatives will seriously doubt her innocence. After all,Rick had recently kidnapped Stacey's daughter Heather and was doing everything possible to make stacey's life a misery.(Heather had been conceived during Stacey's brief affair with Rick.

However Babbin assures us there are major surprises in store. "Keep in mind,there are several other characters with equally strong motives",she told us,adding the trial will last about three weeks. The real murderer-who may or may not be Stacey-won't be revealed until the end of the month.

Aside from Stacey,six other suspects also had compelling reasons to put Rick on their personal hit list:

Jack Forbes(Perry Stephens) As Stacey's husband,Jack definitely wanted Rick out of the way forever. Rick's presence was a constant reminder that Stacey had once been unfaithful.

Dane Hammond(Anthony Herrera) Jack's natural father is willing to do anything to help his son. An unscrupulous businessman,he's sabotaged more than one opponent in the past.Was murder on his agenda this time?

Robert (Will Osborne) Dane's all-too-efficient sidekick has only one mission in life-to follow his bosses orders.

Paul Slavinsky (Joseph Breen) a man with serious mob connections,he was Rick's loan shark.

Stevie(Yohanna Yonas) Paul's statuesque assistant could turn out to be a cold blooded killer.

Norma (Ilene Kristen) As Denny's pal,she was involved up to her eyeball's in the kidnapping scheme.Did she kill Rick to avenge Danny's murder-or to get the payoff money herself?(More importantly,Ilene Kristen doesn't have a long term contract with the show,and that makes her an extremely prime suspect.Ditto,for Osborne and Yonas)

While other producers opt for the three l's in storytelling-love,lies and lust-Babbin's forte is murder.In real life she's something of an Agatha Christie,having penned three paperback whodunits in her own right(Bloody Soap,Bloody Special and Bloody Network).What does she find so fascinating about guns and gore?"I think people love a good puzzle whether it's a crossword or murder puzzle...besides I lov eto kill people and this is the only way to do it".

Babbin,who was producer of AMC in the early 1980's,admits that ABC had to work hard to lur her back to the sopa worls now. She's agreed to stay for one year only,and knows she has a tough challenge ahead of her.Does she have a secret gameplan for turning Loving into a hit?"Telling a good story",she says,"My yardstick is if I'm bored,then the audience is too".

So,who did murder Rick???

[DRW50]

Thanks for this article. What did you think of the mystery? How long was Babbin around? I have forgotten.

I guess it was a future Alden murder mystery which would get the most attention.

[Paul Raven]

Joe Stuart interview from 87

How do sweeps affect storylines?

JS I can't speak for other shows,but you really have to plan your thinking and direct it to the overall continuous strength of the show.Sometimes you do peak a story,or have scenes which are worked out during a sweeps period,but we wouldn't take a story and truncate it just because it was sweeps week.

What about long-term planning?Do you consider sweeps then?

JS Well we have projections for up to about a year ahead,maybe more like nine months. These are very sketchy,and they indicate where certain characters will end up,along with a rough idea of the incidents that will happen to take them there.But of course,everything can change.This business is organic.We all know when sweeps are around and if we forget,the network will remind us,so we do work with an awareness of them.

Why would you change a projected storyline?

JS Well.sometimes a story just doesn't work out.It can be a lack of chemistry between the performers that no one knows about or perceives until it gets on the screen.It can be the audience's perception of the story.Or something might just turn out to be wrong for Loving.Then we have to drive forward with a story that we feel is starting to work.

Who decides something isn't working?

JS Usually producers can see it first because they are in on the taping of the show,and the writers and the network hasn't yet seen all the shows the producers have seen.

Would you then do a rewrite?

JS Yes,but rewrites almost never happen in the studio,unless we run short.The rewrites we are talking about would occur in the long term projections and the outlines.

What changes might occur in the story?

JS Sometimes the material can be played a number of different ways,and we might decide that an actor works better in one way than another.So,we may go against our original plan and emphasize a different aspect of the material.

Who OKs the long term stories?

JS The network has an overview because they attend a writers meeting every Wednesday.At that meeting,the writers,the producer and the network go over the outlines which are the basis of the scriptswhich will air roughly five weeks from the day of the meeting.we read them,and we critique them,and we approve them.Sometimes we decide to change things.So the network knows where the show is going,and it is very much a mutual thing.

Does the network pressure you about ratings?

JS Everyone wants better ratings,but it is like we are all in this together.and speaking for myself,i don't need anyone else pressuring me.i pressure myself enough.what anyone else could do,it mowhere near the pressure i put on myself.in looking at Loving,Loving is better than its ratings.Of course,once you say that,you still have to say that the ratings are what they are.

What do you think the problem is?

JS One of the problems we've had since the beginning of the show is the time period.The decision was made,against our wishes,to put it on initially at 11.30 when it had been shown that soaps were not doing well against game shows.also,we had no lead in.The lead in strategy is to put a new show on in between established shows where an audience already exists.Now we have a lead in(Ryan's Hope) but we are up against Y&R.It's labor in the vineyards.i suppose this sounds like a cop-out,but those are the facts,and they do affect us.

Do you feel optimistic about Loving?

JS yes,I do.you can't let low ratings or rumors infuence your work.People who work in this business have to have endurance.That's in addition to talent,sensitivity and an understanding of what the audience wants to look at.Without it,you can't function.Besides,Loving is in the wonderful position of being renewed on a yearly basis.So,you're going to have Loving on until next June,and probably,in my mind,a lot longer than that.

Joe Stuart had been producer on The Doctors and OLTL when both were doing well in the ratings.It must have been difficult for him trying to get the numbers up.Who replaced him at Loving?Was it long after this interview?

I wonder why he never did anymore soaps after this?Maybe the frustration of Loving was enough for him.

[EricMontreal22]

He left in Spring 1988. Great interview, thanks!

[EricMontreal22]

NY Times Loving Review! (it's an interesting read although not a very good review)

TV: 'LOVING,' NEW ABC SOAP OPERA

By JOHN J. O'CONNOR

Published: June 29, 1983

THERE is a new soap opera in television town. It's called ''Loving'' and can be seen weekdays at 11:30 on ABC, representing the first new ''daytime drama'' that the network has commissioned in eight years. One of the architects of the plot is Agnes Nixon, the so-called soap queen whose successes include ''All My Children'' and ''One Life to Live.'' Credit is also given to Douglas Marland, who, as head writer on the project, is clearly in charge of ongoing developments.

''Loving'' remains true to the basic construction that is the hallmark of all soap operas. Instead of a hospital setting, through which can pass a variety of sterotypes, the new show revolves around a university campus situated in a geographically vague Northeastern town called, of all things, Corinth. Moving right up into the 1980's, the heroine is a television news anchor named Merrill Vochek, product of a modest family background but obviously destined for bigger things. She is described in one network release as ''idealistic, caring and ready to fight for what she wants out of life.'' The going, needless to say, won't be easy.

In a special two-hour television movie that launched the series Sunday night, Merrill found evidence of a prostitution ring involving students at Alden University. Unfortunately, her initial informant was later found dead in a motel room. Scrawled across the bathroom mirror in lipstick was the message: ''Whores Must Die.''

A classic bit of soap dialogue was exchanged between the two investigating policeman: The first: ''What a waste, huh?'' The second: ''You telling me?'' Details of the prostitution business were kept rather hazy. It seemed the recruits were poor students who could not exist solely on skimpy financial grants from a work-study program. But the very subject was a signal that ''Loving'' is going to tackle ''serious'' stuff. Reportedly on tap for future plotlines, for example, are explorations of alcoholism and AIDS. More to the point, the prostitution gambit provided a vehicle for introducing most of the major characters.

Merrill can move easily among different groups of people. She is having an affair with her childhood sweetheart, Douglas Donovan, the boy next door who is a model of innocent goodness. Douglas is the kind of guy who, when finding Merrill and his mother in the family kitchen, can exclaim, ''Well, my two favorite women in the world!'' Merrill loves Douglas, but not quite enough to marry him. Meanwhile, Douglas's brother, Mike, is a cop who is not necessarily impressed with the powerful and their ''fancy shindigs.''

At the other end of the social scale, there are the Forbeses. Roger Forbes, son of a self-made millionaire, is a former Congressman with Presidential ambitions. He becomes the new president of Alden University. Someone helpfully notes that a similar position didn't hurt the careers of Woodrow Wilson and Dwight D. Eisenhower. In the process, Roger bumps to the lesser position of dean Garth Slater, one of the more slimy villains to grace a soap-opera stage in recent times. Roger and his wife have two children: the beautiful but dangerously scheming Lorna, and the handsome, athletic Jack who, in addition to running around in skimpy shorts most of the time, happens to be adopted.

Sunday night's movie also included the one-time-only characters of Roger's father, Johnny, and his former love interest Amelia Whitley, secretary to the university president. Scorned by Johnny, Amelia was desperate for revenge and, as it turned out, she was the organizer of the prostitution ring. After finally killing Johnny, she was hauled off, one hopes to an appropriate insitution. Giving this utter nonsense a modicum of interest was the casting. Johnny was played by Lloyd Bridges, Amelia by Geraldine Page, who kept lurching about wearing crazy hats and puffing on odd cigarettes. Faced with a hopeless situation, Miss Page evidently decided to unveil her own special impersonation of a Russian empress.

As the writers would have it, on the special and on Monday's first episode of the series, idealistic Merrill and rich Roger are falling in love with each other. She has qualms because he is married. He is determined. Daughter Lorna is watching carefully, eager to make trouble for everybody in sight. Meanwhile, son Jack is falling for delicate Lily, daughter of the abominable Garth. Finding her alone in the garden, Jack says, ''Hello, there.'' Smiling shyly, she responds, ''Hello.'' This pregnant exchange was followed by a commercial break. Returning to the story, Lily reveals, ''I want to be a concert pianist some day.'' Still waiting in the wings to be introduced are Merrill's brother, a priest, and Douglas's sister, a star college athelete.

In case anybody missed the point, an announcer at the end of the first episode boomed on rhapsodically about ''the warmth of the Donovan family, the mystery of the Slater family, the conflicts of the Forbes family - the passion, the power, the drama of 'Loving.' '' What the world needs now, especially the world of soap opera, is a good, unvarnished sense of shame. The one note of interest in this entire enterprise is struck, against formidable odds, in the solid performance, at times suggesting a wicked parody of Jessica Savitch, of Patricia Kalember as Merrill. Joe Stuart is the producer of ''Loving.''

[EricMontreal22]

And a review by the same critic of The City--oddly this piece reads less like a review, than a fluff piece LOL

TELEVISION REVIEW;From Ashes of 'Loving'

By JOHN J. O'CONNOR

Published: November 13, 1995

Daytime soaps are known to be bizarre occasionally, but nothing beats the machinations that have gone into "The City," having its premiere on ABC this afternoon at 12:30. The new series emerges from the ashes of "Loving," which for several years has remained, despite periodic doctoring, at the bottom of the daytime-drama ratings heap. "The City" is the multimillion-dollar alternative to simply putting "Loving" to sleep, so to speak.

Some major "Loving" characters from the fictional, rather stodgy town of Corinth, Pa., have already been eliminated by a serial killer. A dozen or so are moving to "The City," set in a grand loft in lower Manhattan. The show opens to the sounds of congested traffic, shouting motorists, snarling cabdrivers and the wailing of fire engines and ambulances. Adding to the frenetic beat are zoom camera shots inspired by the MTV school of art direction, especially as used in "The Real World." Stodgy no more, friends.

At the center of this urban landscape is Sydney Chase, married to the world's third richest mogul and the hurricane force behind his communications conglomerate Chase International. Smart, gorgeous and, of course, venomous if need be, Sydney is played by Morgan Fairchild, whose mere presence in daytime coaxed a good many ABC affiliates into signing up for the series. Ms. Fairchild won't disappoint fans of her cool-with-a-wink sophistication.

It's worth the effort just to see her entrance, stepping out of a helicopter dressed head to toe in white Versace. "Give us your poor, your tired, your wretched," an announcer intones in a commercial for "The City." Sashaying into camera view, the ultra-fashionable Sydney pleads, "And please get them out of my way." Here, at last, is a heroine for the Contract With America crowd.

The transformation of "Loving" was overseen by Barbara Esensten and James Harmon Brown, formerly head writers on "Dynasty." They and Jean Dadario Burke, the executive producer, aim to bring daytime drama into the 1990's, away from the stilted upper-middle-class living room image that still prevails today. They are not the first innovators. On-location shooting is fairly commonplace today, and the element of glitz has long been exploited in shows like "The Bold and the Beautiful."

But the insistent urban beat of "The City" and its constantly thumping visuals add a new look and sound to daytime. Now it's a matter of juggling plots and characters, all of them brought under the single roof of Sydney's SoHo loft building, which she will now have to share, thanks to the treachery of an Australian tabloid weasel (Corey Page), with the new Wilder Modeling Agency. Beautiful people, ex-drug dealers, scheming photographers, altruistic doctors, even a young homeless woman brought up by nuns. There's a little something for just about everyone.

Sydney, you're on. Take it away, girl.

THE CITY ABC, today at 12:30 P.M. (Channel 7 in New York.)

Created by Agnes Nixon, Barbara Esensten and James H. Brown; Jean Dadario Burke, executive producer; Laura R. Rakowitz, producer; directed by Robert Scinto, Joseph Cotugno, Casey Childs, David Pressman, Nancy Stern and Andrew Becker; written by Mr. Brown, Ms. Esensten, Dana Herko, Bill Levinson, Tom Citrano, Ron Renauld, Kirk Aanes, Tony Lang and Millee Taggart; music by Scott Schreer.

WITH: Morgan Fairchild (Sydney Chase), Corey Page (Richard Wilkins), Catherine Hickland (Tess Wilder), Amelia Weatherly (Steffi Brewster), Laura Sisk Wright (Ally Rescott Bowman), Philip Anthony (Bernardo Castro), T. W. King (Danny Roberts), George Palermo (Tony Soleito), Randy Mantooth (Alex Masters), Lisa Lo Cicero (Jocelyn Brown), Debbi Morgan (Dr. Angela Hubbard), Darnell Williams (Jacob Foster), Alimi Ballard (Frankie) and Philip Brown (Buck Huston).

[DRW50]

Was Jessica Savitch dead by this time?

It's funny they single her out as the highlight when she was supposedly fired in 1984 because she cut her hair.

I do think Patricia is a very good actress (she was my favorite on Sisters before they butchered her character), I'm surprised they didn't keep her around.

[dc11786]

The university was the focus for the first six months or so. Garth Slater was killed during November sweeps, which set in motion the slow decline of the college scene. By the end of sweeps, Roger Forbes had been offered a position in Washington, D.C., which meant he and Ann needed to reconcile in order for his career to take off. Then, Doug and Rita Mae's flirtation ended after their faculty folly show arc came to its conclusion and Rita Mae and Billy focused on having a baby while Doug began working on a television series. One by one, the younger characters left the college to pursue careers (Jack worked at Forbes Construction with Ava, Lorna pursued a modelling career, Curtis went to work at Burnell's department store) so there was no real need for the college. In reality, "Loving" probably was never really a college soap as much as it was a soap set in a college town.

Denny was the one who killed Rick, but then Norma killed him (I think) or was lead to believe she killed him. Then his twin brother Wally arrived and romanced Norma. It's all covered on Ilene Kristen's site. To be honest, it sounds a bit bizarre, which is what I think Jacqueline Babbin was going for. The real problem was the show wasn't grounded very well at the time in anything solid. I think she sort of ran off Perry Stephens because she found him bland, but I've never heard much about Christopher Cass. Stephens had been a staple for many years and I think she was a bit foolish to ignore that. Babbin was hired April 1990 and was key to getting Susan Keith to return to the show. She was fired around August 1991; her dismissal announcement was reported alongside the hiring of Michael Malone as OLTL's new headwriter.

According to Nancy Reichardt's column, Joe Hardy took over from Joe Stuart June 20th, 1988. I'm assuming this date was his first date on the set, which means he was probably responsibile for hiring Taggert and King to pen the show once the Writer's Strike ended.

I don't think Patricia Kalember was fired for cutting her hair or if she was, it was simply used as an excuse to cut the character who was wandering aimlessly on the canvas. Once Anne took Roger back and Doug learned of Merrill's affair, there was pretty much nothing left for Merrill to do. She seemed to be chemistry tested with Clem Margolies, the Alden/Forbes family lawyer, and later Warren Hodges, the district attorney, but there was no investment in the character.

Savitch died in October 1983.

[Sylph]

So who here watched Keith/Jonathan battle and Jonathan making a pact with the devil?

[EricMontreal22]

LOL I don't think anyone has--we discuss a lot on one of the pages in this thread and it all seems to be second hand info, sadly... (like just how vague it was if he turned into a snake, for instance )

[Sylph]

I thought the story was a cheeeaaaap, lame Goethe/Faust legends ripoff. Really unsuitable for soap operas.

And why is a snake lame? A biblical symbol of evil.