Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[dc11786]

Linda Cook appeared on "One Life to Live" as Ellen Foley, Ginger's mother and Margaret's sister. I LOVED Ginger Foley and the actress who played her, Shannon McGinnis. I don't know why she was killed off. I wanted her to try and snare Duke and the Buchanan millions so bad.

Cook also appeared on "Guiding Light" a few years prior to that as the mother of some missing Spaulding employee. Her character's daughter was involved with Brad Green, Michael Swan's character. It was hinted Brad had offed the girl, but eventually she popped up. I think Cook's character was involved in the scheme to extort money from Spaulding or something.

I'm not Eric, but I think you are referring to Minnie Madden. She eventually took over one of the residential hangouts. I want to say TJ's (the club/restaurant that Todd Jones ran).

Edited January 5, 2010 by dc11786

[dc11786]

This scene was probably written when Addie Walsh was still headwriter. At the time, Giff was Trisha's shoulder to cry on when Trucker boinked Dinahlee when Trisha was pregnant with Christopher. Giff was well intentioned and probably was intended to have a larger role when the show was focusing on the college set. Then, Walsh quit and Haidee Granger became defacto headwriter and Giff decided he needed to keep Trucker and Trisha apart so he kidnapped Christopher and gave the baby away. By the time Robert Guza and Millee Taggert arrrived, Giff was such a mess they just wrote him off quickly.

I haven't watched the scenes in a while, but I remember the scene with Casey lamenting Alise's death being distinct.

[dc11786]

The clip was from Addie Walsh and Laurie McCarthy's brief tenure (maybe six to eight months) as headwriters. I think this was set up for the Who Mowed Down Clay? storyline. Clay and Steffi were one of Nixon's bizarre pairings, but I think it was suppose to incite conflict between Deborah/Steffi, Steffi/Cooper, Cooper/Clay, and Clay/Deborah. In the end, Clay looks like a predator, when most of the audience seemed to accept him as a sort of aging anti-hero.

I don't understand why Steffi wasn't written off before "The City." Did they really expect Amelia Heinle to stay once her contract was up? I wonder how "The City" would have worked had the younger set stayed in tact. I think it was Paul Anthony Stewart, Michael Weatherly, and Amelia Heinle's choice to leave rather than being fired. Maybe if they had renewed their contracts the show would have had a more solid ground to work from?

The way I've read it, Lisa Peluso and Jean LeClerc had terrific chemistry togehter, but storywise Ava and Jeremy were dull. Gilbert was suppose to be a more exciting character to keep up wiht Ava. To me, it sounds a bit like a retread of the Jonathan Maitland story from the 1980s (which Nixon wrote). Ava and Gilbert were involved at Burnell's after Cabot turned over Alden Enterprises to the Rescotts. Gilbert was involved with Gwyn Alden (who slept with three men who claimed to be her lover when they were actually imposters) and there was the whole shoot out climax.

I'm pretty sure Gilbert died at the end of the Gilbert/Jeremy storyline.

Edited January 5, 2010 by dc11786

[EricMontreal22]

Having watched nearly all of Jeremy's time on Loving, he never really did fit in. It was smart to get him involved with the campus but the reinstating of the university feel of the soap never fully caught on and dc is right his chemistry with Peluso was *great* yet they never had much to do (even when Faison chased them to Universal Studios and King Kong fell for Ava). And yeah didn't Jeremy kill Gilbert? But I guess not if he was at Jeremy's funeral, LOL I feel badly I mis remember that.

DC what years did you actually watch regularly? your knowledge on the storyline is so amazing I thought you watched regularly--but if you didn't see much of Jeremy/Ava I guess not.

Did Susan Keith do anythign when Shana was written out? Anything for another show I mean--to the best of my knowledge it seems not. I loved her (though I get why she was written out--the show canvas was a bit overloaded)

Yeah I guess Egypt wasn't created by Agnes (though I have a feeling she was still involved at Loving in some capacity) but seems such an Agnes character--not just cuz of the obvious Opal similarities. I read that the actress was on OLTL but I don't remember her *at all*--i wonder if there are clips. I have to admit I hated Higley's OLTL so I didn't watch as closely as I could have (and hated Margaret).

The Clay Steffi stuff really worked for me *at the time* anyway--but I didn't have a huge past with his character. But I got that he was doing it to get even with Cooper who he felt slighted by his dad over for running the company, etc. I really enjoyed all that actually. (it's funny that clip of the car attack shows Loving had pretty good production values for such a little soap--of course wasn't the Alden mansion one of the biggest sets at ABC Daytime?)

I do think that Steffi, Cooper prob Casey were all intended or hoped to go to The City--it'd make sense for them to go, they were quite popular and the City was more focused on the younger characters (interesting that for me most of my faves were still the older characters--Tess, Roscoe Born's character, Angie, Tracy when she came, etc). Still I did grow to love some of the new characters like Zoe and of course Carla.

I actually have some clips on a compilation tape I clumsily made as a young teen (I shoulda just saved full episodes lol) of Minnie and Egypt--they were great together. I think Loving was the "warm up soap" at most households. Since I was the only one in my house who watched soaps, and did it mostly by myself I grew to really love it (and The City)--some of it may be sentiment and I admit some of it was I hated how even back then the show seemed ignored--it never got ANYthing except a recap it seemed in SOD, and we had a local show from Seattle where Cindi Rhineheart would discuss the soaps--even though it was on the same ABC affiliate as Loving etc, she NEVER discussed Loving so in a way I liked it I admit partly cuz it was the underdog (don't even get me started how it was never even considered for ANY Emmys it seems). But I think in hindsight it does stand up even with all the problems it had--it's the only one of Agnes' shows we have in its entirety (in fact you could run it as an hour a day and get it all done in 5 or so years ) and it'd be great if it appeared somewhere. Besides never getting the prestige of Ryan's Hope one reason it may never have been on SoapNet, even when they did stuff like show old soaps, was didn't Agnes Nixon's company Dramatic Creations (her second company, not Creative Horizons under who she staged her first two shows) own it and City for their full runs?

[SFK]

Yeah, I don't know what's up with the rights, and I've said this several times in the past, but The City seemed like such a no-brainer for SoapNet's lineup. It's still young and hip, and at two eps a day, it would have been over in a *snap*. I'd much rather that than the constant start and stop of RH.

[DRW50]

I think the only person from Loving who won an Emmy was Bernie Barrow.

The City should have been an obvious choice for Soapnet, but then, that channel has almost always had odd choices.

I really enjoy most of Loving when I get the chance to see it. Some of the material some feel very generic, but the actors often make it work. In some ways I think it was ahead of its time, in that the show was very plot-driven and did not have a strong identity, and the actors had to push ahead.

[SFK]

You know, I think you hit something on the head with the word "generic", and I'm no Lovingphile or anything, but that is kind of the vibe I got from the show (and wow, I guess you could start with the title). I think some fans more knowledgeable of the show's history would agree that characters and plots at times seemed like Nixonian retread. Almost like Agnes Nixon's niece was writing a syndicated soap or something.

I'll be the first to admit though that The City won me over from the very first time I read about it, style over substance. But I really felt that there was some substance there. That show really deserved a better chance. I'd say it was better than much of GL's final years, even some of AMC's more recent years.

[EricMontreal22]

I wish we'd get a warts and all story about the early days of Loving--or maybe all of it. It feels like Agnes wanted to create a traditional small town soap--the kind of show AMC was becoming less and less of, but ABC probably didn't want this at all (it was pretty out of touch with 80s soaps). Then there's the fact that originally it was going to be done with Agnes and her friend Dan Wakefield the very good novelist who met her while he was writing his fan biography All Her Children and went on to write books like Going All the Way and Starting Over as well as creating the 70s show that inspired Dawson's Creek, James at 15. On paper anyway, he seems to be a great choice but sometime between '82and '83 (and the name change to Loving from Love Without End (which is a bit of a generic title too but I actually vastly prefer, it seems less awkward). Then somehow Marland came on, then somehow he left (did ABC fire him? Did Agnes? Did he just get bored?) and his named disappeared from the creator credits...

While Creative Horizons owned it I'm pretty sure ABC might have at least owned some and many of the changes were imposed by them.

As for generic... There was a lot of good stuff, the main prob was lack of consistancy with actors and stories/style. But I'll admit it never really had a full on identity (except for at somepoints a kinda small AMC and that's not really an identity). Agnes (and the other writers who knows how much she was involved) did retread many of her old stories but, for example, less blatantly than other soap writers have (this is a common "problem" in the industry) most notably the early years of Bell's B&B cribbing so much from early Y&R and even his DAYS... But Agnes herself never seemed quite able to put a full on identity on the show--like she didn't know herself (maybe cuz she was getting older, maybe cuz she had two co creators essentially, maybe cuz of ABC, who knows) though I did really love her period writing it in the 90s (and those last few years in general).

The City still looks pretty good (especially compared to GL) and I think after some mistakes (doing another serial killer story so soon, etc) the last 8 months were really good. I've said it before (I'm repeating myself in this thread a lot ) but its last half year or so (which I have all on video and mark my words I will upload sometime soon I hope) it was my fave of the three ABC/NYC soaps I watch (granted OLTL had fallen off the rails quickly at this period, but...)

The last period the ABC here showed it after the news at midnight but I actually think it played better as a late night soap (11:30 am, when Loving aired here, is a particularly awful time for a soap aimed at younger and urban audiences--at least AMC has the lunch break factor for it). I know it was expensive to make, but its ratings were the only ones at ABC to remain steady or climb at the time it was canceled and I think it deserved a bit more time. (I would like to know how much Agnes Nixon's co creator and consultant credit really incluenced Brown and Esensten's writing--certainly people in the soap industry thought well enough of it to hire them elsewhere... I know people often only give them credit for the Loving Murders as their good soap, but I think the last 6 months of City they really found the way to mix the traditional and modern well--even if Harding Lemay thought it was atrocious or whatver )

[DRW50]

The City tried to be so many things. They tried social issues, but didn't seem to know how to handle them. There was a hint of nighttime soap, but that also didn't quite pan out (and the scuttled Born/Fairchild pairing didn't help). Then they revamped with the Masquerader. I thought everything with Tracy's arrival was brilliant, she really gave a huge breath of fresh air. Carla was also great. When I watched at the time that was what kept me tuned in. The Ally/Tony/Carly/Danny stuff and Angie's baby needs didn't do a lot for me. Tess's cancer story was good, what I remember of it. I think the show always had a problem knowing what it was and how to mix the fresh filming style with storytelling which eventually became very safe.

[Paul Raven]

The only constant in Loving was change.So even from the start there wasn't much stability in stories and character,so I guess that's where the 'generic'tag came from.

Even viewers who hooked on from the start would have not recognized the show after a few years.There was no real feeling to encourage loyalty in viewers.

[DRW50]

I think what made Loving work was the commitment of the actors. It's interesting because AMC always had a VERY distinct identity, and it kept that identity for many years. I think Loving was more like OLTL, a show which Nixon also took a reduced role on (even more than Loving), and which had many different identity changes. I guess the big differences with Loving and OLTL were OLTL had stronger showrunners and their timeslot helped provide better ratings, along with their stories, and some of their casting moves (like Reinholt and Courtney). And OLTL started in an earlier era, when ratings were healthier all around.

[SFK]

I see Lemay's point, but then I think about what life was like for me in college, how VERY close I was to my friends. That couldn't touch my family life back home, but it was still valid. I do believe in the concept of created family, and Angie, Jacob, Frankie, Zoey, Kayla, I mean, they had a little more of a traditional family thing going on. I did enjoy when Deborah was there for Steffi, though I also loved the concept of her winning the lotery and buying the Alden mansion, living happily in Corinth!

I thought Morgan Fairchild was great, but she was poorly propped. No offense to Joel Fabiani, but his Jared was a bit of a dud, and I just NEVER bought into... oh God, Australian dude... Richard? Whatever, I just never bought into him as Sydney's not-really-adopted-but-real-son. She sorta bonded with Jocelyn, she had her right hand man Samuel, but overall, Sydney was way too islanded to be the star of the show. In retrospect, she needed like three kids, she needed the Dirty, Sexy, Money son and daughter to give her grief, but of course this was before the age of the Paris Hilton Manhattan It Girls.

[EricMontreal22]

I do think that by 93 or so they had found a smart return in tone to the early days--but that would be probably too late for many.

Carl I think City was consistantly strong once Tracy came in--but I actually liked the Angie baby storyline. I agree the first half of its run it really was trying different things and didn't really know what it meant to be--I liked Sidney but she didn't really help with the tone, Tracy was a better fit. The last few months did a good job of mixing the youth storylines with some light social stuff and humour, etc. (and I LOVED the last episode end montage to the Beatles "The End"). It also took complete advantage of being a 30 minute soap (which made stories that on other shows may have bugged me--some of the Danny/Ally/Tony stuff though including Carla into it first as a comic villain and then making her actually be an emotionally involving character helped a lot--didn't in such a short time). And the way they used location shoots, which at first sometimes did seem done in a bit too self consciously cool a style actually reallys tarted to work. It's a shame that Burke brought absolutely ZERO of that with her when she came to EP AMC and really did nothing for the show.

[EricMontreal22]

Agnes also left OLTL in a very good position (and hand picked and trained Russell to follow her) which really carried OLTL through to the early 80s. So there was a stability there at the start that Loving never had (and they had actors who stayed on the show a long time) though I do get what you mean. I also think it was a bit out of date with the times (something that appeals in a way to me I admit) There's a promo somewhere of Agnes introducing her show and she says something about how exciting it will be, modern, sexy, etc, and then they show the Loving logo and it just kinda makes me laugh--cuz it really doesn't seem like the two go together at all.

[SFK]

I love the way she says "roMANCE" in that promo.