The initial frame for the Lily / Garth based on the Love bible as @EricMontreal22 has pointed out. I admire how Nixon lays the groundwork for the story in research and sets herself up for an out (incest can just be psychological and not physical) if the network balks. Though, if I recall correctly, she still has Garth's physical assault of Lily act as the preceding incident for the murder. And, while Nixon does state that Garth dies in the fall, she sets up the revelation that June is the killer for July/August, 1984, as the cliffhanger for the Olympic break. Instead, the Olympic cliffhangers were Jack's motorcycle crash (shot on location I believe) and the revelation that Jonathan and Edy were husband and wife.

I am curious when the multiple personalities angle was added as that isn't at all discussed in the bible. I thought the Curtis / Trista angle was a smart move to build conflict between Curtis / Jack, but that slowly evaporates over time. Some of the stuff involving Jack and Lily on the run and the murder trial seemed like a deviation of Nixon's original All My Children plans for Phil and Tara, which had Phil on trial for Nick Davis' murder. Though Dane Hammond seems to be a Marland version of Nick Davis.

As we have discussed in the past, Marland was telling an incest story on A New Day in Eden around the time he would have been joining Nixon on pre-production. The scripts I have are from late in the shows run (the final 14 or so installments out of the 66). By that point, the incest story is going pretty strong. It is presented more as a mystery as Logan Clayborn has arrived in town after being outcast with his mother (I think her name was Shirley) many years earlier. Logan had tracked down the man his father, prominent attorney Emmett Clayborn, had claimed had had an affair with Shirley, and the man (I want to say his name was Ham) had informed Logan that he had never slept with Shirley. Emmett despised Logan and, when Logan got closer to the truth, Emmett violated his daughter, Logan's sister Cynthia (played by future Lily Slater Britt Helfer) before fleeing Eden himself. In the rape scene, Cynthia is dragged off screen by Emmett wearing her nursing uniform and, when the scene picks up she is now wearing just her robe.

Logan never discovered the truth, but, in the finale, Logan ended up in a locked room at the Clayborn mansion. The suggestion is that the person with the gun was Emmett, but it is never stated directly. In the meantime, the show was drawing Cynthia Clayborn closer to Jack Wagner's Clint Masterson. Clint was the source of romantic tension between Miranda Stevens and Pam Evans, who had the poolside lesbian encounter. I don't know how ladies' man Clint would have handled a potentially frigid Cynthia.

In terms of Loving, I imagine some of this played out as the mystery of why Garth and Lily were so close. I also think that we would have seen some of that potential tension over Lily's feelings about her sexuality after the trial had she continued. I believe that the implication was Curtis and Trista/Lily went to bed. It would have been quite a source of tension if Curtis had slept with Lily and Lily struggled to be intimate with Jack. I also imagine some pushback on Lily's part when Jack started to explore his family origins given how horrible hers were.

I also wish that they had revisited the Slater mansion. It seemed to be a decent size home and I imagine it would have been a hard sell with it being the site of a murder. I always wanted someone with ambitions to buy the house (like Rita Mae) looking to elevate themselves in society while completely ignoring the spectre of Garth's life and death.

Wait, Phil was going to be accused of killing Nick on AMC?

@soapfave06 It's been a while, but I believe in an early story bible for All My Children Phil was accused of killing Nick, who I don't think he knew was his father yet. I could be very wrong, as I read the bible years ago, and All My Children is not really a show I am super interested in so I probably didn't pay much attention.

I've been watching the November, 1991, episodes being posted this evening. Wonderful. I love this period of Loving. Fran Sears and Mary Ryan Munisteri were really giving the show a very distinct vibe with the introduction of the Tides, the bowling alley, Giff's art studio (which is definitely a recycled set), and the radio station. Giff talks with Dinahlee early in those clips about his three sons (a hockey player, a musician, and a 12 year old who wants to be a Marine). The Giff / Gwyn banter is awesome. Richard Cox is one of Tudor Newman's better male leads. It's a shame that Walsh decides to axe the pairing.

Some of this I haven't seen in a while so I am making more connections with Ryan Munisteri's work on Tribes. They were definitely building a music storyline with Matt and Giff's (unnamed) son with the radio station being pulled into it.

I know I've talked about it a lot, but the Matt Ford / Ceara Connor stuff is really well done. There are scenes at her office where Matt is putting up shelves to make some extra money and you have Matt recounting the issues with his stepfather. Ceara says Matt shouldn't feel shame for his stepfather's actions and you just want Ceara to accept that for herself. Jeremy is much more charming in 1991 visits and works as a faux romantic rival for Trisha's affections. I love the animosity between Giff and Ceara and the friendship between Giff and Dinahlee. Giff is big on the "we listen, we don't judge" train years before it was a thing. I miss this more colorful, offbeat artist version of Giff who quickly loses favor (and his flavor) when Walsh arrives.

There's a really nice scene with Stacey and her mother where Rose warns Stacey that she is overthinking the Dinahlee stuff. Teri Keane looks very vibrant in her suit and well made up. I wish they had kept her around as well as Ed Bryce as Patrick. I think the slow burn tension between Dinahlee and Trucker while Stacey thinks Jack is eyeing up Dinahlee is fun. Lauren Marie Taylor plays it well trying not to fall too far into her paranoia, but still worried that she might not be enough for Jack. There is some later moments where Stacey is hosting the reception for Jeremy Hunter at the Alden mansion (where her and Jack have lived since they inherited the house after Cabot's death) and Taylor plays the insecurity of being the lady for the manor. It's probably the best material Cass and Taylor get as Jack and Stacey before Jack is written out.

I know there are new uploads popping up and I think Celeste Holms' Isabelle should be appearing soon if the material stays in 1991.

Thanks! I love your commentary and information, I am not overly familiar with Loving but I enjoy reading the thread.

46 minutes ago, soapfave06 said:

Wait, Phil was going to be accused of killing Nick on AMC?

The only AMC soap bible I've read is from 1967 (presumably the one that Nixon felt she lost on her trip) and has MANY changes--far more than the Loving bible and is also about 1/3 as long if that. (One of the oddest things is Joe Martin and crew have the last name Craig--which she would use for OLTL--and the Brents, Ted and Phil and Ruth, are the Martins.

Anyway, from what I recall, in that outline, Phil overhears that his birth parents are aunt Carol (aka Amy) and Nick Davis, and basically he runsaway to New York to track down Nick, who is described as completely amoral, and ends up working at his bar. Nick is "every bit as bad as Phil has been told" and after a drunk Nick tells Phil about how he had to get out of Pine Valley when he got a girl pregnant, Phil in a rage jumps on him. Nick hits his head on a table and is killed (later Linc Tyler--a lawyer here--will represent Phil and get him off due to "mental anguish" from the situation.)

Now I have no idea if Agnes Nixon rewrote a full bible when she finally pitched AMC to ABC in 1969 but obviously she changed story projections. But, as Nixon remembers in the little interview clips they show here on Pluto TV between AMC episodes, she said Nick was only meant to last 6 to 8 months but they liked Larry Keith so much that they kept him on until HE wanted to leave. But obviously so many of these other details were changed anyway.

2 hours ago, vote4llama said:

@DRW50 The Italian channel is up to March 1984. Hopefully they post more! It's surprisingly easy to get used to the captions.

I've been watching those along with the other channel we've been blessed with and boy do I have thoughts. The 83-84 episodes seem smoother than well...anything after. They flow naturally and while there aren't many omg moments, they are still entertaining. It's so weird to see Chris Marcantel because I've only seen him in the 90s eps. Him and Lorna conspiring together is fun. Later, like 85 and beyond, Lorna's venom seems directionless. So it's nice seeing her being entertaining. I prefer this Ann to Callan White. And the big story is around Lily of course. I assumed the viewers knew from the beginning about the abuse, but it's actually a slower burn. Her Dad is super controlling, and jealous of Jack. Her mom is an alcoholic who herself is physically abused by Garth. She doesn't do much to help Lily even though she knows. What surprised me is once she gets sober, she's way more proactive in helping Lily. Lily and her alternate personality Trista date both Jack and Curtis, which is fun, but disturbing too. Jack and Lily are obviously the couple to root for from the beginning. Stacy is their best friend and #1 team Jack and Lily...sometimes I think there are undertones that she has feelings for Jack.

And then of course ABC pulls the plug on the incest story. And Lily leaves. What soap opera writes off their original heroine after seven months?! I guess that's the start of Loving's questionable decisions. Even if they stopped the incest story, they could have kept Lily and integrated her personalities so she's a good girl with an edge.

Is that why Marland got pissed off and left? I always thought he left because he couldn't handle Agnes. Or maybe the low ratings.

His name is still in the credits as HW until mid 85. But the show is soo different. I wonder if he was gone already but they had to keep paying him contractually or because maybe they were still pulling from his bible or story projections.

Thanks for the details - it can be tough to want to watch with the dubbing but I mean to someday. I appreciate all you are telling us. I saw that Schemering article saying 1984 was a strong year for the show - sounds like he was right.

Didn't Jennifer Ashe have an issue with the producer or was that someone else?

I'm not sure if this footage was already around, but there are some glimpses of Jonathan terrorizing Jim, including bright lights, signs of the cross that probably vexed a censor, and getting wood dropped on him. The bad video quality adds to the horror aspect.

@Vee @EricMontreal22

LOVING SOAP OPERA Random Episodes Part #160!

4 hours ago, dc11786 said:

The initial frame for the Lily / Garth based on the Love bible as @EricMontreal22 has pointed out. I admire how Nixon lays the groundwork for the story in research and sets herself up for an out (incest can just be psychological and not physical) if the network balks. Though, if I recall correctly, she still has Garth's physical assault of Lily act as the preceding incident for the murder. And, while Nixon does state that Garth dies in the fall, she sets up the revelation that June is the killer for July/August, 1984, as the cliffhanger for the Olympic break. Instead, the Olympic cliffhangers were Jack's motorcycle crash (shot on location I believe) and the revelation that Jonathan and Edy were husband and wife.

I am curious when the multiple personalities angle was added as that isn't at all discussed in the bible. I thought the Curtis / Trista angle was a smart move to build conflict between Curtis / Jack, but that slowly evaporates over time. Some of the stuff involving Jack and Lily on the run and the murder trial seemed like a deviation of Nixon's original All My Children plans for Phil and Tara, which had Phil on trial for Nick Davis' murder. Though Dane Hammond seems to be a Marland version of Nick Davis.

It was interesting to me that for the Love bible Nixon already felt (maybe ABC had already asked for this) that she map it out up to the cliffhanger for the Olympics break. Also interesting the references already to the movie pilot (she constantly says "we have to remind audiences of this in case they didn't see the movie" etc) the movie of course is credited Story by Agnes Nixon, teleplay by Marland and Mulcahey.

You're right that the DID element to Lilly's story isn't there yet, although there's SOME suggestion of it in the bible (Lilly acting very differently in certain situations--but really that could just be a response to trauma in general.)

Didn't Marland pen, or want to pen, a multiple personalities story for Jane Elliot's Carrie when he was at Guiding Light? I don't remember the details except I think he left the show in part because the network had an issue with it? (Elliot of course was also on New Day in Eden though I'm not sure if it was a major role or not.)

(Thanks for the details on New Day in Eden--for all the interesting or major storylines that show had, it's a shame that the only full episode and clips we have for the show are... well pretty boring story wise lol.)

Of course having Lilly's multiple be with Curtis while Lilly is with Jack does have remnants of a switch on Nixon's original Vicki/Nicki storyline (except Nicky was "slumming it" with lower class Vince, not one of the richest family members around.)

4 hours ago, dc11786 said:

@DRW50, I think it was you who noted way back when that in the late '80s and early '90s, Christine Tudor Newman and Elizabeth Savage both played Gwyn as variants of the brassy dame in a '40s flick. That certainly feels true in the latest uploads from 1990, where Elizabeth and Ilene Kristen sing the hell out of some standards. Man, Ilene looks like a little girl next to Elizabeth.

4 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

It was interesting to me that for the Love bible Nixon already felt (maybe ABC had already asked for this) that she map it out up to the cliffhanger for the Olympics break. Also interesting the references already to the movie pilot (she constantly says "we have to remind audiences of this in case they didn't see the movie" etc) the movie of course is credited Story by Agnes Nixon, teleplay by Marland and Mulcahey.

You're right that the DID element to Lilly's story isn't there yet, although there's SOME suggestion of it in the bible (Lilly acting very differently in certain situations--but really that could just be a response to trauma in general.)

Didn't Marland pen, or want to pen, a multiple personalities story for Jane Elliot's Carrie when he was at Guiding Light? I don't remember the details except I think he left the show in part because the network had an issue with it? (Elliot of course was also on New Day in Eden though I'm not sure if it was a major role or not.)

(Thanks for the details on New Day in Eden--for all the interesting or major storylines that show had, it's a shame that the only full episode and clips we have for the show are... well pretty boring story wise lol.)

Of course having Lilly's multiple be with Curtis while Lilly is with Jack does have remnants of a switch on Nixon's original Vicki/Nicki storyline (except Nicky was "slumming it" with lower class Vince, not one of the richest family members around.)

Yes. Marland wrote GL's Carrie (Jane Elliott) as DID, or whatever it was called back then. There was a spectacular scene between Carrie and Vanessa (Maeve Kincaid) (when Vanessa was still mostly a spoiled rich girl with her own share of psychiatric problems). Carrie became physical, shaking her, calling her SLUT, and disturbing Vanessa's carefully coiffed appearance. Vanessa was noticeably terrified.

It wasn't long after that both Carrie and Marland were gone.

11 minutes ago, Franko said:

@DRW50, I think it was you who noted way back when that in the late '80s and early '90s, Christine Tudor Newman and Elizabeth Savage both played Gwyn as variants of the brassy dame in a '40s flick. That certainly feels true in the latest uploads from 1990, where Elizabeth and Ilene Kristen sing the hell out of some standards. Man, Ilene looks like a little girl next to Elizabeth.

This is amazing! Thank you for tagging me. Yes, Elizabeth truly played up that '40s vibe. Christine did too, especially when she returned, but Elizabeth was the embodiment. I never knew she sang on the show. I could have had her and Ilene singing for a whole episode.

@Vee Sorry to tag again but this is another you would enjoy I think.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by DRW50

14 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

This is amazing! Thank you for tagging me. Yes, Elizabeth truly played up that '40s vibe. Christine did too, especially when she returned, but Elizabeth was the embodiment. I never knew she sang on the show. I could have had her and Ilene singing for a whole episode.

@Vee Sorry to tag again but this is another you would enjoy I think.

I just knew you'd get a kick out of it. Elizabeth sings in the upload before that, too. In retrospect, this was setting the stage for the fabled musical Christmas episode that @Kane, myself, and others have been hoping will turn up.

Thanks again @Franko what a joy.

I assume Christine Tudor was not a singer, but now I'm sorry she didn't sing out that final confession scene with Steffi.

I can't remember if Ilene has ever gone into detail about her time at Loving. A shame the character just vanishes. One of the last appearances I saw of her (I guess these have more) is her being held hostage by that psycho Walter Bobby character...not fun.

I didn't even know Gwyn worked for Paul. I don't remember them interacting when Tudor was in the part. Paul usually just appeared with about 4-5 characters.

Edited 32 minutes ago32 min by DRW50

8 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I assume Christine Tudor was not a singer, but now I'm sorry she didn't sing out that final confession scene with Steffi.

I swear I've seen the confession compared to an operatic aria; might as well have gone big or gone home.

8 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

One of the last appearances I saw of her (I guess these have more) is her being held hostage by that psycho Walter Bobby character...not fun.

Especially since the show played it as "Ha-ha, Norma got raped, and raped, and raped some more."