Toups,

Can you get me the seasonal ratings from 1996 onwards?? From non-standard repertoire, I used PSSN and AW.

Can you get me the seasonal ratings from 1996 onwards?? From non-standard repertoire, I used PSSN and AW.

I don't have seasonal ratings from the 90's.

But I do have ratings from the 90's, but it's incomplete. I'll post them sometime later.....If I remember.

Personally, I don't think "rolling out the stars" will save Y&R if the writing isn't there. It's all about exceptional storytelling. While a popular, returning actor or actress may get some press buzz and a slightly, initial ratings bump, if lapsed viewers tune back in only to find their fav trapped in a deadly dull or preposterous story, that viewer will tune back out, possible for good. And who can blame them. It's happened too many times. And the results have been the same. There are exceptions, of course. Angie and Jessie's returns on AMC seem to have kept the show from free-falling even farther. But what Y&R needs now is a repositioning of its popular characters, in stories that excite and interest and are grounded in the show's rich history. There's so much that isn't working these days, pairings that have no chemistry: Nikki and David, Victor and Sabrina, J.T. and Victoria. Even Nicholas and Phyllis have become deadly dull. I think Y&R is at a crossroads. They have an inexperienced HW, who's been out of daytime for twenty-plus years. She's inherited a bloody mess from the previous HW. It would take someone very seasoned to extricate the show from LML's residue. At the very least they need to bring in a co-head, someone with history with the show. They also need to remployee many of the breakdown and scriptwriters who were fired during LML's tenure. They've written the show for years. They know the history of the characters. They know it's about emotional content, not about witty banter and dialogue. It's possible to turn this ship around, but as many of the other flagging soaps have shown, once the audience leaves, it's difficult if not impossible to get them back. That's why it's critical that TPTB back now, swiftly and decisively. If Y&R continues to sink, the rest of the CBS lineup will feel the fallout, which will further wound the soap opera brand.

So well said. You know, when MAB appeared, I was surprised. Then when the show seemed to instantly improve, I thought "Dear God in Heaven, praise be, you delivered us a Bell! And she has wrought great things.". I attributed all improvements to her...since Josh had been there.

For several months, I coasted on the fumes of the characters become what they always were. I also thought some new casting (Adam, Sabrina) was inspired.

But promise only lasts so long.

Now, I could easily have held on without complaint...but the falling ratings and the growing chorus of dissent tells me that the lack of momentum--driving story, excitement, day-to-day emotional cliffhangers--is taking its' toll. And it makes me angry only because it is damaging the franchise I care about.

I don't have seasonal ratings from the 90's.

But I do have ratings from the 90's, but it's incomplete. I'll post them sometime later.....If I remember.

We'll pay you.

Y&R is very salvageable. It hasn't lost a lot of core characters, its core cast is still good, and unlike others shows, it has money for sets and other production elements.

They seriously need to get rid of this Restless Style crap. Jack, Sharon, Phyllis, and Nick have been to involved in one another's orbit for a good 3 years now. They shouldn't still be this glued at the hip. They'll always be connected in some way, but its time to branch these characters out. Also, it wouldn't hurt to break up that DULL coupling of Nick and Phyllis.

I agree with you.

For example, let's say Noah starts experimenting with drugs. And let's say that Jack and Phyllis both say "hey...he's just experimenting...it's normal and natural...just don't worry". And let's say that Nick and Sharon say "No, listen, he's got addictive tendencies in his genes, and we already lost a daughter--indirectly--to substance abuse".

They don't need to be in each other's orbits. This story, alone, would keep them in the orbit, cause new alliances and old fractures, and could generate months of story. Especially if Noah's behavior leads to some high stakes (runaway, impregnating a girl, getting hepatitis, etc.). I acknowledge this is not the most original thing...but what I'm saying is that kind of emotional story is what draws us in.

One of my favorite Jack Smith stories was Nick, Sharon and Neil on the trail of runaways Daniel and Lily. THAT was high drama. That was characters brought together for completely realistic, natural reasons. It was the outgrowth of one of the best, most dramatic umbrella stories ever (Cassie's death...a story that STILL resonates today).

When Jack Smith tried this nonsense (Tuvia vs. Safra) the show tanked. Why oh why, then, would they do another one of these?

Mark, have you seen those graphs on previous 2 pages? Now I'm updating my data, so I'll post something later. 

I watched portions of Y&R yesterday. The Restless Style crap has got to end...it's killing all characters involved. To see the Jack character reduced to arguing with Nick about some location shoot was ridiculous. They need to get Peter Bergman, who looks very uncomfortable in these scenes, out of that orbit and get Jack back to being a mover and shaker. Sharon Case seems like a glorified extra in these scenes. I think Case is an underrated actress and makes such a great soap heroine, and it's just sad to see her in this capacity. She's been nothing but glorified comic relief since they put Sharon and Jack in Gloria's orbit. It was a nice change of pace to see her in some lighter storylines for a change, but the novelty has worn off, and it's time to make her the beleaguered heroine once again. Phyllis has just become overly obnoxious more than anything else, and Stafford just seems so bored with her lines and with anything opposite Morrow. The character withers when not driving high-stakes story. Daniel/Amber are a snooze, as are Lily/Cane, Nikki/David, JT/Victoria, Jana/Kevin, and anything Sabrina/Victor/Adam-related. It's great to see Jess Walton more involved, but I have a feeling Jill's just being used as a plot device in the Gloria/Jeffrey storyline, and I'm not sure they really have any long-term investment in a Nikki/Jill feud. It's to Walton's credit that she's able to rise above the lazy writing for the character. Essentially, the canvass of core characters is still there. They just need to be served with stories that make sense and which don't have the same power as a sleeping pill.

^I disagree. IMHO... ratings for soaps work like a movie franchise. if first movie is great and does well - second movie will do well. but if it sucks then even the next one is good it will not do well. except the 'movies' or by ever month or so...

this new team hasnt had time to do much of anything. if anything this just proven the a writing team is important and having people left from lml's is hurting. because, IMHo the show is muhc better and the char's are who they whould be again.. its just painfully boring. and for that i do hate to throw this out there... but they need an event. a plot point. \a ratings draw. and one that will work and be good and actually shake the show up....

They've had 6 months to do what they needed to do but they have made the show worse. And don't blame this on LML because most of these stories were not even her idea, the Cane/Lily pregnancy mess, the restless style mess, Victor/Sabrina, Gloria/Allistair/Jeffrey...I could go on. All of these stories have been dreadfully boring except for a scene or two here or there.

What I love about these graphs is Sylph's skillful superimposition of milestones (e.g., "Hogan era").

Even if the declines observed are for other reasons (e.g., the whole reason the writer came in was because the show was in trouble...the dip would have happened no matter what), Sylph's graphs sure create a nice impression of the damage done by a creative team. Excellent sophistry! (I'm just teasing. I'm all about this kind of data analytic stuff. In fact--honestly--this weekend I'm tempted to do a mixed effects time series model to show that the shows decline in lockstep...and that it really has nothing to do with the week to week writing stuff we decry in here)

What I love about these graphs is Sylph's skillful superimposition of milestones (e.g., "Hogan era").

Even if the declines observed are for other reasons (e.g., the whole reason the writer came in was because the show was in trouble...the dip would have happened no matter what), Sylph's graphs sure create a nice impression of the damage done by a creative team. Excellent sophistry! (I'm just teasing. I'm all about this kind of data analytic stuff. In fact--honestly--this weekend I'm tempted to do a mixed effects time series model to show that the shows decline in lockstep...and that it really has nothing to do with the week to week writing stuff we decry in here)

Thanks, Mark. I would looove to see that time series model! I even tried to do some programming in Fortran (of all lanugages...) and I used SPSS with this, but I haven't produced anything worthwhile.

They've had 6 months to do what they needed to do but they have made the show worse. And don't blame this on LML because most of these stories were not even her idea, the Cane/Lily pregnancy mess, the restless style mess, Victor/Sabrina, Gloria/Allistair/Jeffrey...I could go on. All of these stories have been dreadfully boring except for a scene or two here or there.

Okay, but each one could be fixed.

Cane/Lily: She should not have lost the baby. This should have been the plot to make her grow up. Chloe should have stolen Cane--or better yet have FEIGNED a pregnancy by Cane. Consequence: Lily matures. THEN (yes, I know this is derivative, but I would do it anyway, because Hendrickson can handle it): Chloe loses HER baby. She arranges to steal Lily's. You know where this idea comes from. Coup de grace: 2 years from now, Chloe's mother comes to town...and is revealed to be Kimberlin. Yup...Chloe is really Mary Warwick.

Alright, I know a lot of you hate that one :-).

Victor/Sabrina: It turns out she really set up this story years ago. When Victor is not looking, she takes all his art from the classic masters. What about the expensive modern art she bought for him? Turns out it is all counterfeit crap and $10 tinfoil. So she not only got his classic art, she also pocketed all the money from his modern art investments. He is left broken hearted and robbed. This triggers a massive revenge storyline and a global woman-hunt. It takes a long time to find her, if ever. She is revealed to be the most devious woman ever on Y&R. Ultimately, it is JT and Victoria who find her and bring her down. Victoria is beyond hurt that her "best friend' really glommed onto her...all those years ago...to set up a 'long con' that ultimately had Victor and his fortune as the intended goal.

Gloria/Alistair/Jeffrey: She DOES become penniless. Jeff gets $50M, and goes back to Korea. Gloria, realizing she still has more to atone for, turns herself in to the police for the face cream. She is given a 3-month sentence (like Phyllis/Jana), and probation. While in prison (we see her only 1x a week), she gets regular visits from Alistair. Alistair starts to get a bit quieter, more serious. Still a twinkle in his eye...but not such a buffoon. Jack does a background search that reveals that he is John's brother...lost from the family somehow. Alistair becomes more John like, although he will remain more of a raconteur and blowhard, but closer to Rex Sterling than Maurice Evans. Then...the Rex thing was not accidental...Alistair is given room and board by Kay. And Kay..well...remembers the best friend she went skinny dipping with all those years ago. And she realizes that Alistair is kind of like that young John...before Dina left him and made him more serious. In addition, Alistair just plain reminds her of Rex. Maybe he uses some of the same phrases or has some of the same mannerisms. So, what happens is that Alistair becomes Jack's confidant and senior mentor in the ways of the heart. Gloria finds herself attracted to him. So does Kay. And this leads Gloria to tangle with Kay.

Thanks, Mark. I would looove to see that time series model! I even tried to do some programming in Fortran (of all lanugages...) and I used SPSS with this, but I haven't produced anything worthwhile.

Okay, you're on. SPSS Mixed...this weekend, or tonight if I can't delay gratification. I'm such a geek.

Wow that's pretty sad that hack Latham's Y&R got better ratings than the show is now

Seriously B&E need to GO! The show has improved somewhat, but there are still too many craptastic storylines in play. Seriously Kendall taking Greenlee to try on dresses and run into Angie & KWAK. I agree with what Julie Globius in SOW said about this "when did Kendall stop hating Krystal?"

It's contrived ish like that is why this show continues to shoot it's self in the foot. They take two steps forward and twenty steps back every single episode pretty much.....

Edited May 16, 200817 yr by Zendall Fan

Thanks, Mark. I would looove to see that time series model! I even tried to do some programming in Fortran (of all lanugages...) and I used SPSS with this, but I haven't produced anything worthwhile.

Really nice graphs Sylph. Didn't they change the way they did the ratings a couple of years ago? I wonder if that has any influence. It's probably doesn't and I may have dreamed that they changed the system, but I'm curious.

Hey, if you are ever bored some weekend, download R. It's freeware and it's easy to self-teach. Once you figure it out, it does everything that Stata and SPSS can do and it's graphing capabilities are better than Stata and, in my opinion, SPSS. The beauty of it is that it is freeware and the community wants to keep it that way. It does take a little work to learn, but once you learn the language, it's pretty intuitive. You can download the manual probably on the site where you download R. If you have ever used LaTex -- another freeware program I recommend for anyone doing academic research -- you can learn R very easily. In fact if you use syntax files with SPSS, R will be a piece of cake to learn. Believe me if you can program with Fortran, you can do this.

A second benefit -- from my point of view -- is it is incredibly Mac friendly.

Wow that's pretty sad that hack Latham's Y&R got better ratings than the show is now

Seriously B&E need to GO! The show has improved somewhat, but there are still too many craptastic storylines in play. Seriously Kendall taking Greenlee to try on dresses and run into Angie & KWAK. I agree with what Julie Globius in SOW said about this "when did Kendall stop hating Krystal?"

It's contrived ish like that is why this show continues to shoot it's self in the foot. They take two steps forward and twenty steps back every single episode pretty much.....

So glad SOW said something about how STUPID kendall even being in the same room is!

I may have to buy the mag just for that?

I don't think B&E have ever even heard about a little story called the babyswitch?

Really nice graphs Sylph. Didn't they change the way they did the ratings a couple of years ago? I wonder if that has any influence. It's probably doesn't and I may have dreamed that they changed the system, but I'm curious.

Hey, if you are ever bored some weekend, download R. It's freeware and it's easy to self-teach. Once you figure it out, it does everything that Stata and SPSS can do and it's graphing capabilities are better than Stata and, in my opinion, SPSS. The beauty of it is that it is freeware and the community wants to keep it that way. It does take a little work to learn, but once you learn the language, it's pretty intuitive. You can download the manual probably on the site where you download R. If you have ever used LaTex -- another freeware program I recommend for anyone doing academic research -- you can learn R very easily. In fact if you use syntax files with SPSS, R will be a piece of cake to learn. Believe me if you can program with Fortran, you can do this.

A second benefit -- from my point of view -- is it is incredibly Mac friendly.

Y'all are some SERIOUS geeks.

And I say that with the love and respect of somebody who struggles to reconcile her finances with Quicken every month

_{(and...ahem...owns two Star Trek uniforms.)}

So glad SOW said something about how STUPID kendall even being in the same room is!

I may have to buy the mag just for that?

I don't think B&E have ever even heard about a little story called the babyswitch?

Julie Globius is ALMOST reason enough to make me wanna subscribe to SOW. She is not afraid to call out AMC on their crap when it's needed, she also doesn't play favorites like Hinsey does

Really nice graphs Sylph. Didn't they change the way they did the ratings a couple of years ago? I wonder if that has any influence. It's probably doesn't and I may have dreamed that they changed the system, but I'm curious.

Hey, if you are ever bored some weekend, download R. It's freeware and it's easy to self-teach. Once you figure it out, it does everything that Stata and SPSS can do and it's graphing capabilities are better than Stata and, in my opinion, SPSS. The beauty of it is that it is freeware and the community wants to keep it that way. It does take a little work to learn, but once you learn the language, it's pretty intuitive. You can download the manual probably on the site where you download R. If you have ever used LaTex -- another freeware program I recommend for anyone doing academic research -- you can learn R very easily. In fact if you use syntax files with SPSS, R will be a piece of cake to learn. Believe me if you can program with Fortran, you can do this.

A second benefit -- from my point of view -- is it is incredibly Mac friendly.

Is there an online course for R? I know I should know it, but SPSS has spoiled me...no syntax ever :-)