I think early RH had arguably some of the most complex characters on daytime; people who were truly neither all saints nor all sinners.

15 minutes ago, Khan said:

I think early RH had arguably some of the most complex characters on daytime; people who were truly neither all saints nor all sinners.

I agree in a sense, but I think in some cases that was down to the actors. When some of those actors, like Kate Mulgrew, left, some of the issues with the writing came to the fore. 

There were complex characters who were well-written and acted, like Jill, but many times we would end up with "good" characters I wanted to kick off a cliff. It's one of the reasons I was so protective toward Delia when Randall Edwards played her.

Edited May 15May 15 by DRW50

2 hours ago, Khan said:

I think early RH had arguably some of the most complex characters on daytime; people who were truly neither all saints nor all sinners.

Absolutely. On any other show, Frank Ryan would have been a shining romantic hero. I think they made Delia so impossible so you would feel as though he had a right to cheat on her. But he was a deadbeat dad, neglectful of the women in his life, even neglectful of his family, ridiculously ambitious. Once in a while he'd show some integrity, and then he'd go back to being a self-centered jerk.

But he was definitely an interesting character. 

When Pat was married to Delia, it was two incredibly neurotic people caught together in a very toxic relationship. Again, fascinating to watch.

2 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I agree in a sense, but I think in some cases that was down to the actors. When some of those actors, like Kate Mulgrew, left, some of the issues with the writing came to the fore.

Yeah, when those first contracts ran out, the people leaving caused a big issue. Almost like they did too good a job with the initial casting. 

I actually liked the first recast for Mary. (I think her name was Mary Carney?) Part of the problem was after being so front-burner for 3 years, Mary and Jack's story was basically resolved and they had to fall back on the tired "marriage vs career" trope. Then they brought in the second and third recasts that were total misses. Plus, they were ramping up Siobhan's character. It seemed they were more interested in focusing on her once Mulgrew left. 

Edited May 15May 15 by DeeVee

14 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Absolutely. On any other show, Frank Ryan would have been a shining romantic hero. I think they made Delia so impossible so you would feel as though he had a right to cheat on her. But he was a deadbeat dad, neglectful of the women in his life, even neglectful of his family, ridiculously ambitious. Once in a while he'd show some integrity, and then he'd go back to being a self-centered jerk.

But he was definitely an interesting character. 

When Pat was married to Delia, it was two incredibly neurotic people caught together in a very toxic relationship. Again, fascinating to watch.

Yeah, when those first set of contracts ran out, the people leaving caused a big issue. Almost like they did too good a job with the initial casting. 

I actually liked the first recast for Mary. (I think her name was Mary Carney?) Part of the problem was after being so front-burner for 3 years, Mary and Jack's story was basically resolved and they had to fall back on the tired "marriage vs career" trope. Then they brought in the second and third recasts that were total misses. Plus, they were ramping up Siobhan's character. It seemed they were more interested in focusing on her once Mulgrew left. 

Mary Carney was the best of the Mary recasts. I think everyone I've seen talk about the show has said this, or almost everyone. The show just gave up too quickly. I agree the story was over. I don't think the show ever developed Mary's career enough to make viewers care about that aspect.

I remember reading an interview with Ilene Kristen where she talked about how much support she got from viewers with Jill and Frank (I think it was from around then). I don't know if Roger/Delia was always the plan (wasn't he interested in Mary early on?) but I sometimes think they threw that together to try to make viewers feel Delia had no moral high ground.

Frank was an interesting construct as a man who looked like the ideal politician yet behaved...like a typical politician. I think that's why he mostly took off once they cast Daniel Hugh Kelly, who fit the duality. 

Edited May 15May 15 by DRW50

13 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Mary Carney was the best of the Mary recasts. I think everyone I've seen talk about the show has said this, or almost everyone.

 

I really liked her. Michael Levin (Jack) felt Mary Carney was too low-key (in comparison - he called Kathleen Tolan electric). Ilene Kristen (Delia) said in one of the many book promoting interviews that Mary Carney wasn't right for the role. 

13 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 The show just gave up too quickly. I agree the story was over

In one of the interviews about the Dutch version of the show, Paul Mayer said "the trick with these kind of series is to keep the boy and girl apart for as long as possible" so I wonder how Mary and Jack's story would have played out if Kate hadn't become pregnant (or if  they hid the pregnancy).. beyond what was said in the press of  having a Jack/Mary/Alex triangle. 

13 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 

I don't know if Roger/Delia was always the plan (wasn't he interested in Mary early on?) but I sometimes think they threw that together to try to make viewers feel Delia had no moral high ground

Roger was interested in Mary for half a second. Roger/Delia appears to have been planned all along  as Roger was listed as being part of the  original Delia/Pat/Faith story that was to happen when the show first began and had Frank dying.

Edited May 15May 15 by safe

30 minutes ago, safe said:

I really liked her. Michael Levin (Jack) felt Mary Carney was too low-key (in comparison - he called Kathleen Tolan electric). Ilene Kristen (Delia) said in one of the many book promoting interviews that Mary Carney wasn't right for the role. 

In one of the interviews about the Dutch version of the show, Paul Mayer said "the trick with these kind of series is to keep the boy and girl apart for as long as possible" so I wonder how Mary and Jack's story would have played out if Kate hadn't become pregnant (or if  they hid the pregnancy).. beyond what was said in the press of  having a Jack/Mary/Alex triangle. 

Roger was interested in Mary for half a second. Roger/Delia appears to have been planned all along  as Roger was listed as being part of the  original Delia/Pat/Faith story that was to happen when the show first began and had Frank dying.

Thanks for the info.

I haven't read the RH book, but I guess this is a reminder that actors will have very different views on a recast than fans. I can see where they thought Carney was low-key, especially compared to Kate Mulgrew, who has always had such a vibrant presence. But even if I wasn't a huge devotee, I'd still say she was the best of the other recasts. Kathleen Tolan (RIP) is one of the worst actors I have seen on a soap. She could not speak. She wasn't all that great at emotions beyond being mad. Frankly, her acting reminded me of one of the lesser Our Gang kids.

Edited May 15May 15 by DRW50

3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I can see where they thought Carney was low-key, especially compared to Kate Mulgrew, who has always had such a vibrant presence. But even if I wasn't a huge devotee, I'd still say she was the best of the other recasts. Kathleen Tolan (RIP) is one of the worst actors I have seen on a soap. She could not speak. She wasn't all that great at emotions beyond being mad. Frankly, her acting reminded me of one of the lesser Our Gang kids.

Maybe Carney and Levin didn't get along, but he got along with Tolan. Who knows.

I SO agree about Tolan. I am sure my jaw hit the floor when I watched her first scene. She had been hyped like crazy by the soap mags. They swore she was going to be a sensation like Mulgrew. I thought she had a speech impediment. More likely she just couldn't remember her lines so she ended up slurring them from nervousness. Not everyone can do soap acting, it's very difficult. There's memorizing so many lines, then there's so little rehearsal. I think she was a theater actor. Maybe she was a good one. But when the camera was fixed on her, she just...sucked.

I had nothing particular against Nicolette Goulet. She just wasn't Mary. She had no chemistry with Levin. She didn't even look like she belonged in that family (a similar situation when they replaced Sarah Felder with that blond chick who was laughable as a rookie cop).

I don't believe it was impossible to recast the role. Kathleen Turner was doing soaps during this era. She would have been a phenomenal Mary. (Not to say that she would have been available, but just to point out there were good actors of that type around).

Edited May 15May 15 by DeeVee

28 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

I had nothing particular against Nicolette Goulet. She just wasn't Mary. She had no chemistry with Levin. She didn't even look like she belonged in that family (a similar situation when they replaced Sarah Felder with that blond chick who was laughable as a rookie cop).

Goulet also had an odd way of speaking - very clipped and brisk, like she had just gotten out of a '40s film. She sounded out of breath. She had this on all her soaps. She was a better actress than Tolan and did well enough with Mary's grief over her marriage in her final week or two in the part but had no real spark. 

I agree they may have found a better Mary if they had tried harder. For some reason the recasting for the Ryan kids was never what it should have been. I don't know what was going on with Barbie Siobhan. Maybe that was ABC.

Edited May 15May 15 by DRW50

1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

I don't know what was going on with Barbie Siobhan. Maybe that was ABC.

Yes, I believe that is the case. ABC wanted Siobhan and Joe to be a very popular couple and apparently didn't think Sarah Felder was glamorous enough.

I don't know if this story is true, but I heard somewhere that Felder told everyone off at her farewell party because of the reason she was fired. If it's not true, it should be! 😂

Edited May 15May 15 by DeeVee

22 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Yes, I believe that is the case. ABC wanted Siobhan and Joe to be a very popular couple and apparently didn't think Sarah Felder was glamorous enough.

I don't know if this story is true, but I heard somewhere that Felder told everyone off at her farewell party because of the reason she was fired. If it's not true, it should be! 😂

I read that somewhere too - maybe it was mentioned in that book? I hope it's true.

My only recollection of Ms Felder in Tom Lissanti's book is that she was not well liked backstage, and nobody was aware of rumors that she was fired because of her looks, including the network executive interviewed for the book.

12 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I can see where they thought Carney was low-key, especially compared to Kate Mulgrew, who has always had such a vibrant presence. But even if I wasn't a huge devotee, I'd still say she was the best of the other recasts. Kathleen Tolan (RIP) is one of the worst actors I have seen on a soap. She could not speak. She wasn't all that great at emotions beyond being mad. Frankly, her acting reminded me of one of the lesser Our Gang kids.

I totally agree with this, as most of you seem to. Mary Carney was at least competent and reasonably likable; I just feel like she barely had anything of substance to do before she was abruptly given the hook. And I get the backstory of Kathleen Tolan having done a play with Helen Gallagher, but...at any point did they ever actually READ her before they greenlit her? Because...OOF. First time I saw her on SoapNet was right when this GODAWFUL actress named Charity Rahmer played Belle on Days of Our Lives for all of three weeks before she was mercifully recast; her line readings were straight out of a Charlie Brown special. I remember thinking Kathleen Tolan could have played her mother!

In the Frank/Jill/Delia triangle, Delia WAS the one who was cheated on, so I got why she was upset and thought it was perfectly valid in theory at least, but of course it was blown up to Wagnerian proportions including falls involving staircases and tricycles. But with Pat/Faith/Delia I had no sympathy for her...especially because it was mainly with Catherine Hicks's Faith and I really liked her.

22 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 

I haven't read the RH book, but I guess this is a reminder that actors will have very different views on a recast than fans. I can see where they thought Carney was low-key, especially compared to Kate Mulgrew, who has always had such a vibrant presence. But even if I wasn't a huge devotee, I'd still say she was the best of the other recasts. Kathleen Tolan (RIP) is one of the worst actors I have seen on a soap. She could not speak. She wasn't all that great at emotions beyond being mad. Frankly, her acting reminded me of one of the lesser Our Gang kids.

Those descriptions of Mary Carney-- from Michael Levin --were from a magazine article in the early 1980's. In the book, he did say all three Mary replacements were bad.

 

On 5/15/2025 at 6:29 PM, DeeVee said:

Yes, I believe that is the case. ABC wanted Siobhan and Joe to be a very popular couple and apparently didn't think Sarah Felder was glamorous enough.

I don't know if this story is true, but I heard somewhere that Felder told everyone off at her farewell party because of the reason she was fired. If it's not true, it should be! 😂

 

On 5/15/2025 at 6:51 PM, DRW50 said:

I read that somewhere too - maybe it was mentioned in that book? I hope it's true.

 

On 5/15/2025 at 7:22 PM, j swift said:

My only recollection of Ms Felder in Tom Lissanti's book is that she was not well liked backstage, and nobody was aware of rumors that she was fired because of her looks, including the network executive interviewed for the book.

In a video intetview, it was Richard Backus (Barry) who said Sarah told everyone off at her goodbye party.                                                                               On the Soapnet forum, Rose Also and Sean, the MemoryBook webmaster ( he also posts here)  both told us Sarah had been fired. Everyone on the board was shocked. For some reason noobody recalled that. In more recent years, it's been easier to find old press clippings that show that her dismissal was announced in newspapers and magazines.                                      Sean also told us that many of Sarah's castmates were not sorry to see her go. One of the columns about her firing in 1980 said that Sarah "raised the ire" of her co-workers.                                        On the SN board, we were told that Sarah would speak negatively about the show to the press. For example, she reportedly criticized the show for dumping the Pat/Nancy interfaith storyline.  The network didn't like Sarah speaking out like that                                                        On top that,  there were the issues with   Sarah not being glamorous enough --- Richard Backus described it as Sarah wasn't seen as a romantic lead                            

Edited May 17May 17 by safe

On 5/12/2025 at 7:18 PM, DRW50 said:

I think the first 4-5 years have many strong spots, some beautiful writing, and I didn't find it that hard to watch, but one of the main issues with the show for me - and this just gets worse - is many of the characters we are told to root for I find extremely unlikeable. 

I remember my late mom express passionate love of the show (being that we're Irish Americans and how Johnny and Maeve Ryan reminded her of her grandfather)... and that she viewed Jillian and Mary as role models.

When the show ran on SoapNet years ago, I remember watching the early episodes and having debates with my mom over how strident and militant the show was... especially in regards to feminist issues.  And how I found Mary to be a hypocrite (she's a reporter... yet can't suss out that her father and brother are both toxic and controlling)... and Jillian to not be quite a good role model (yes, she's a lawyer.. but she's happily waiting for Frank to divorce Delia and then after the divorce.. waits for him to win elections as she silently waits on the sidelines).

My mom did admit that in retrospect, she did find the show to be a bit strident and explained that it was the 70s and feminism was a huge passion for her and others like her.   And that was when I learned to view soaps without a modern day lens... and eventually I did find enjoyment on the show (and their St Patrick's day celebrations were always a fun tradition).