YRBB

Holy cr*p! Dr. Ackerman shot himself in the head in front of Karen and Mac when they finally confronted him about stealing the babies! Well played, KNOTS LANDING, well played.

"Yes you do!" ROFL!

Continuing my journey through Season 6. On "A Price To Pay," there is this really, really awesome Ben/Val scene, in which they return to Ben's fabulous beach house, put on a ballad and dance. It's romantic without being cheesy; that kind of romance is almost extinct nowadays. Meanwhile, Abby is being blackmailed by Greg: Get Gary off Empire Valley and I'll tell you where Val's babies are. Watching Ben/Val and Gary/Abby interact is great. There is no doubt in my mind that Gary/Val are endgame but it's better when they're apart. Just like when Pam and Bobby divorced on DALLAS, there is no other scenario more touching and full of dramatic tension than when the endgame couple is apart, secretly loving each other but never together. In the meantime, Gary and Val's involvement with their respective partners brings on a ton of drama, especially Gary and Abby's relationship. They've been milking it for four seasons already. The show has been very smart about dealing with those two couples. Laura is also in the midst of a low-key, yet satisfying, feud with Ruth. Laura has been going for Ruth's neck, time and time again, even going as far as to tell her that what Greg sees in her is that she's good in the sack! Ruth does what she always does: She takes it in stride, smiles, and moves on to the next insult. Such fabulous TV.

Kenny and Ginger lasting all the way till Season 4 is a sign that they at least were trying to keep the characters (and actors) around, even if it was in a limited capacity. But, in any case, it was always clear to me that they saw the writing on the wall where those two were concerned. I'm REALLY thankful that we didn't have continuous huge storylines focused on them just to make it work--like I've said before, we get that all the time in soaps now and it's one of the reasons why they're ruined--because it just would not have happened. Oh, I don't think anyone claimed she worked better than Ciji! God, no. Cathy was and always would be a replacement. Richard was probably my favorite character in the early seasons; so complex and portrayed by the best actor on the show. However, I understood why he was written out. I don't think he was a very good fit for a lot of the Dunne years and his story seemed to have reached an end. It was just the character, who he was, it would be impossible to bend him in a way to make him fit. Plus, they already had their hands full with doing that for Laura. I agree, I would have loved to see what Richard would do after his divorce but their marriage was dead and I don't see any sense in them continuing to discuss it. At some point, it would have become too much of a good thing. It was painful to see him go but I think his story concluded wonderfully.

We knew more than just that about Laura; for example, the fact that her mother's death forced her to become a substitute mother, a substitute wife... and we saw how that affected her life afterwards. In any case, I don't mean to get bogged down in details. It wouldn't make sense to create lists and see which one is longer lol The point of the matter is, regardless of the past (because that is PLOT, most of the time) what mattered to me was character, a distinction which is not always as clear as should be. And what we saw of Karen and Laura was much more precise and well written than Ginger. From the very beginning, there was nothing undeveloped about Laura; I don't know where that came from! Again, as to liking the stories or not, it's personal taste. I've heard people say they hated the first three seasons. Go figure. I happened to think that Laura's stuff was great in Season 1 (and The Lie remains my favorite of them all). To me, that doesn't make much of a difference. One would be in the credits, the other would not. The lesser actress being the one in the credits. But, since this is about the character's role on the canvas, it was very clear that Ginger's wasn't very fitting. I have never, not once, missed her since she left. Even when she was a regular character, she would disappear and even the characters on the show didn't seem to mind or notice! There was no void by her not being around. On the contrary, on the occasional episode where Lilimae doesn't show up, I always wonder where she is, why wasn't she shown? You described some of the reasons why I loved Lilimae's existence so much. She was making up for lost time and she had nothing better to do lol Why is that bad? That sounds like so many families I know. If she stifled Val's voice, it was great character writing. And the Chip/Josh stories could not have been done without her being permanently around. Especially Chip. She was instrumental in that. As for her day-to-day existence.... most never seemed to mind. But let's agree to disagree on that! I agree--it was all a persona! Even more reasons to love her. So realistic, so true to life. I wanted to smack her too. But that ain't a bad thing!

You see, I thought he fit perfectly. He was the perfect opposite to Angela's villain. He was the good guy but without being boring or angelic. He had his flaws, like being self-righteous and stuffy but that was an acknowledged character trait, not accidental. I tend not to moralize characters' traits (especially on soaps!) but instead observe them, so negative traits such as those don't bother me. I don't agree, at all. What we know is some skin deep info--she was scarred by an abortion (not really a character trait, must be noted) and she didn't have a good relationship with her mom. What did they ever do with that? What drama did that ever produce except for one episode? Instead, Karen and Laura's characters and past fused to produce tons and tons of drama. So maybe Ginger was naive and vulnerable. So what? You can't build an exciting character with just that. Karen and Laura had so many sides to them they sparked drama easily; Ginger's had to be fabricated. Well, this is purely a matter of opinion: Whether one enjoys it or not is up to them. Maybe I'll watch it again to see what I think of it now. Pointer was indeed chilling and it was far from the worse KL episode. But it just didn't resonate with me. Karen could get a bit over the top, that's true, but that was as much Lee's fault as the writing's (if not more). Her... theatrical qualities would come out, almost always to the scenes' detriment. No argument from me here! Diana was really grating, although for me it was in a good way. I think what the show decided to do was just cut its loses and I don't blame them for that. You seem to like Ginger so I see your point of view but she didn't seem all that popular in general. Why try to establish her after four years when every other attempt (however small or large) had failed? I think it deserves to be taken into account that she really wasn't that great of an actress, let's be honest. LOL It's ridiculous how differently I feel about this. She was probably one of their more brilliant characters; so wonderfully complicated, realistic and hard to watch at times. However, there was never anything fake about her. She was what sooooo many people are: A hypocrite, religious and often very harsh on other people. She was an often annoying older woman, who had made many mistakes but desperately tried to make up some of them eventually. There is absolutely no validity to Val's character being "weakened." Why would that weaken her? It was completely IN character for Val to eventually forgive her and find the strength to try and make it work. It spoke VOLUMES about Val's capacity for forgiveness, her desire to be loved, looked after, to have a mother, etc AND it brought a lot of drama. A LOT. When you have a relationship like theirs AND two actresses like Van Ark and Harris, you would have to be crazy not to write for them with every single opportunity! Have Lankford stick around but not Harris? Good Lord!

I wouldn't use any of those as examples. Steven was a viable character that was hurt by a horrible recast and bad writing. No one on DYNASTY worked after Season 3 anyways. Claudia was great until the writing went South; Chase (in the seasons I've seen) was great and an integral part of the fabric of the show, so I have no idea why he would be included. Again, this should be put into context. If one looks at the whole cast of KL and compares them to that couple, wow. The difference is jarring. They were missing at least a couple of dimensions as characters compared to others. They were a 5 and the others were 10s. However, they were kept around and treated far better than one would have expected. Especially after the show took a very different direction in Season 4. One would have expected them to fit in better with that style. I think they kinda did. But the quality of the rest was so high that it would never work. I guess my question to you is, who was Ginger? What can you tell me about her, except that she was often whiny because her husband was horrible in the beginning (more of a plot than a character thing) and wanted to sing? I can give you lists of things about who Val, Laura, Abby, Karen are... but Ginger? Nothing. Nada. In FOUR years, nothing. THAT is why she didn't work as a character. Constant Companion had a haunting storyline? Ex boyfriend's mother stalking you because of your abortion years ago is haunting? Wow, we really do see things very differently in this regard. There is absolutely no comparison to Karen's stuff (especially her first episode, which handled the matter of a woman growing up so subtly, gently and brilliantly). In the end, what did you learn about Ginger after that? It was just plot. Or maybe we did learn something but it never stuck, I dunno. Well, she received equal airtime for a long time, until it was clear that other things were working and hers was not. When you know, you know. If they had pushed to make her work then it would have been one of those things we see regularly on daytime soaps, a la Ryan on AMC etc, were they go overboard to push the character and it ends up worse. Great instinct by the writers there, I would say. I don't recall her bond with Joe but I do recall he and Val created a great bond. Maybe it's slipping my mind. But I am glad you love Laura. I don't think I would touch the subject of Diana because we disagree on that even MORE! I will never understand the outcry against her because I loved Diana, she worked great and she transitioned easily into the soapier era. Plus, I happen to think she is one of the few TV teenagers that ever was realistic, which is possibly one of the reasons she was hated so much. Lonow is a great actress who, I guess, was just too real for TV, too much, too harsh. I don't think people could handle it. I loved every single moment of her yelling lol. The writers obviously loved writing for her but the audience spoke! Well, yes, I do agree she transitioned well. She stayed for a whole season! But it just wasn't enough. Well, Val always had the capacity for tremendous soapy storylines (and, boy, did she ever!). Laura... Laura could never be transitioned into anything, that was the great appeal to her! She was who she was, end of story lol Oh we agree on this! Jacobs (or one of them) have admitted to regretting getting rid of Ciji, it was the only reason the Cathy thing happened. And she really was passive--like you said, things happened to her and she never recaptured the magic of Ciji. But, I wouldn't say their story was very rushed... it was fast, but it's been almost the whole season and marriage just came up now. Karen and Mac were married 15 episodes after they met lol As for them not having plans for her, that doesn't ring true at all. From her reintroduction and scheme with Abby, to her affair with Gary, to Ray's return, to the singing, to her relationship/abuse by Joshua... she was kept pretty busy. But it would have been nice if she was a bit less passive.

Yes, I do remember thinking she was becoming too much of a victim, but the story was great and she still had her sarcastic edge and good moments. Once Star left... disasterville.

I don't think this has happened yet... Or there might have been one. In any case, nothing regular. But it seems exactly the type of Latham nonsense!

They did try. More than enough. The fact that they were kept around for four years is evidence enough that they wanted to make it work. Can you name any other show that would have done it? Ginger was given the same treatment the other three ladies were from the beginning. Each lady had a standalone episode in the beginning that was meant to showcase them and develop them. In Karen, Val and Laura's case (with Let Me Count The Ways, Will The Circle Be Unbroken and The Lie) it was a resounding success. Three of some of the best hours of TV I've ever seen. With Ginger on Constant Companion, a huuuuge, boring failure. Yet, they were given story and involved as much as possible. However, I agree that the idea of Ginger in the middle years of the show, with Joshua, works for me. But Lankford would have never done well (just like she never did in any of the other seasons) and pairing her against the wonderful Baldwin seems like suicide. But it doesn't matter because Joshua didn't even come in until Season 6. What would Ginger have done in Season 5? And she had a baby too! I don't even know what to say about the Cathy comment. You've stunned me. She was never the greatest or most complicated of characters but she worked wonderfully. I don't see why you don't like her. But, then again, you also don't like Lilimae? looooool

In the meantime, I just watched A Man of Good Will, Lynn Latham and Bernard Lechowick's first episode of KL. My God, what a weird experience that was! All of a sudden, you have Karen walking around with a soda can, Michael talking about a game, Mack saying things like "que paso?" and all sorts of "everyday" things that are meant to make the characters look more realistic, yet come off as fake. Totally unnecessary considering that KL was actually pretty good about weaving soapy and everyday things together in scenes. What was even more shocking, however, was how they were allowed to change the tone of the show! There was freaking "funny" music throughout (horribly reminiscent of DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES)! Most of the scenes were written lightly, humorously, and the drama and soapiness turned down. The ending (a GREAT twist that revealed that Gary was given Empire Valley by Galveston) played, again, for laughs, instead of seriously. UUUUGH--it reminded me so much of the changes made my Latham on Y&R that I almost gagged. You can see the pattern. Do they hate drama? I guess they do. The whole episode felt like late 80s KNOTS LANDING set in 1985. Why were they allowed to do this? What is it about these writers that they always manage to take over whatever show they get involved with, always to the show's (eventual) detriment?

Nobody can blame KNOTS LANDING for writing them out, of course. They tried. They really tried. They gave them four years and it never worked. Even after the kind of reboot and the soapier direction the show took in Season 4, Dunne kept them around and artfully got them involved as much as possible. But it was clear that neither the characters or actors were ever going to work (and they sure did try to make it happen) from the very beginning. After all, how can you have Gary, Sid/Mack, Richard and... Kenny? The dichotomy is stupendous. Same with Val, Karen, Abby, Laura and Ginger. You compare the first four with the last and its laughable.

It was FANTASTIC. Just absolutely thrilling from beginning to end. Great script from George R.R. Martin. Every character involved was poignant and interesting. LOVED the sequence where Tyrion sends in the one boat and creates disaster. The effects were TREMENDOUS. Fire can be notoriously difficult to do well (and, on series, usually looks horrible) but they did a large scale explosion that looked like a big budget movie. Major kudos to them for that. The soldiers burning, the ships sinking, it was more than I would have ever hoped they could achieve. Just unbelievable. And fantastic editing. Top of the notch stuff. They deserve an Emmy, for production values at the very least. The Hound's journey in this episode was great as well. Surprisingly, his fear of fire seemed to humanize him. I like the relationship he's developed with Sansa. It looks like she turned his offer down but it probably would have been smarter for her to just take him up on his offer to take her back to Winterfell. I'm pretty sure he would really stop any harm from happening to her. Tyrion really proved himself here. I hope against all hope that that final shot of him did not mean he's dead. Cersei's scenes were phenomenal. She keeps ricocheting between total evil/bitchiness and a softer side and it's fascinating to watch. I really thought she was going to kill both herself and her son. Tywin's entrance was great. And I have to say that the ending shot was gorgeous; just a beautiful image to end the episode on. Total success.

Season 4 was... I don't know what the word is for it. Definitely boring. Frank South does not do the type of soap that Darren Star did so brilliantly in Seasons 2 and 3 and it showed. The show became almost a caricature of itself. He tried but it just didn't work. He also had no idea how to write for a lot of the vet characters. Jo was his worst. He REALLY did a horrible number on her and her exit was actually very insulting. She deserved better. He just had no idea what to do for her (and I suspect that's why Zuniga left). Plus, the whole Richard thing really dragged the show down. Muldoon was horrible. Amanda was also quite unrecognizable during her ex husband storyline (until she got her balls back) and he did what I thought was impossible: He made Crazy Kimberly boring! Things get MUCH better in Season 5. I'm 2/3 into it and I am very excited with it--I feel I can care about the characters again, although he still has a bit of a problem with some vet characters. Alison and Jake's airtime diminishes a lot and their story doesn't kick off for a LONG time. But the show also changes. The pace becomes a bit slower and he starts doing way bigger story arcs than usual. He brings in some new characters that work (one of them REALLY works). But, thinking about it, he gives the newer characters MUCH more airtime than some of the vets. I'm very divided about him; I can't just call him a hack because he's done some great work but he CANNOT do the crazy, fast-paced MELROSE that I would have liked to kept seeing. And it's so weird, since he wrote some of the best episodes of Season 3. Btw, totally unrelated, but I HATE the music in Season 5. It's this weird rock thingy going on that, again, feels like it's trying to emulate previous seasons' rock cliffhanger music, completely omitting all the often touching bm that they had. I'm rewatching Season 3 and it's shocking how good the music often was, elevating a lot of the scenes. Now, it's the same generic rock music over and over again.

Watching "Spring Training" from Season 1. Is this show serious? The whole episode is about Brandon and Steve coaching baseball and Brenda adopting a dog which found her on the street and refuses to leave her. There's also a comedy subplot about Jim throwing his back. I'm sure they'll all be learning valuable life lessons and such but I won't be finishing this crap. On to the last two episodes of Season 1!

I hate Theon although I do find his journey fascinating. His desperate attempt to gain respect and power just digs him deeper and deeper. I am still amazed at how great the Arya/Tywin scenes are. I love how he keeps thinking he's figured her out and she keeps evading him--unless he knows and is just playing with her. The scene with the creepy corpsy guy was completely shocking and riveting. I have no idea how Dany will get out of this. Sansa continues to evoke a lot of sympathy. It's great how she was a total, hateful bitch in Season 1 and how you really feel for her now.

SKINS has been on my list foreeeever. I really gotta get to it. OMG yes it is! I thought she looked familiar!

That must be my favorite episode of the season. Great action, horrifying violence. My heart was pounding throughout. The scene were Theon kills Rodrick; Littlefinger, Tywin and Arya (I'm sure Littlefinger must at least suspect); the riot and, especially the threat of Sansa's rape (I was SURE it would happen!); the great ending. I love the twist that Jon's story took. It will be interesting to see how it develops now that he's lost with a wildling. I was surprised that Osha was planning to help the Starks all along. Is it only me or does it seem like Robb's romcom Lady Whatever was bluffing and that she IS actually a spy? Loving everything with Tywin and Arya. The fact that that little girl can more than hold her own against an actor of Charles Dance's caliber is just shocking. Dany seemed a bit nutso the way she was going on and on and on at the Spice King but I guess she's right.

What a delicious surprise! Thank you

That was great! I think my favorite moment was that chilling look that Tywin and Aria exchanged during their scene. It was lethal. I am very intrigued to see what happens with Jaqen... who else will she ask to be killed? And, YES at Gendry without a shirt. More, please. I did NOT expect Renly to be killed, especially not by that shadow-demon thingy. The alliance that it brought between Cat and Soldier Woman is great. Tyrion continues to fascinate. He is all types of WIN. I agree... It's time that they move the stories along, especially with only 10 episodes in a season. But this marriage for Dany seems promising.

This was a wonderfully tense episode. Joffrey becomes more and more surprising with the levels of evilness he exhibits. Just when you think he's done... Absolutely LOVE Tyrion's continuous efforts for dominance in the court. It's so much watching him manipulate and cajole people to his will. I am fascinated by the twist in which Aria becomes Tywin's servant. Quite soapy. Can't wait to see where that goes! Dany is wonderful; her story has been VERY slow-paced this season but it nevertheless continues to be fascinating. Melisandre giving birth was... absolutely stunning and shocking. Such a great ending.

I'm surprised because I find the actor fascinating! Granted, I haven't watched in the past couple of months, but I liked him very much when I did see him.

He's what?

This show never disappoints!

Early Season 5 is the apotheosis of Jane... I just loved every single moment of her spiraling out of control.