52 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

It can't be stressed enough that it was 60 Minutes and Murder She Wrote that largely kept CBS's ass afloat in the early 90's.

 

29 minutes ago, kalbir said:

More like from the late 1980s, once Dallas fell out of the Top 10.

Both true.  By the late '80s and early '90's, many of the hit shows that had defined CBS -- the nighttime soaps, the Monday night "Ladies' Night" lineup, the action-heavy shows like "Simon & Simon" and "Magnum, P.I." -- were either gone or about to be gone.  Things were looking bleak for the network, with its' only bright spots being its' NFL coverage (which is why losing them at some point during the mid-'90's was considered the biggest blow), its' Sunday night lineup, "Murphy Brown" and maybe "Touched by an Angel."  Then, along came a little show called "C.S.I.," and the rest is over-exposed franchise history lol.

Edited January 19, 20223 yr by Khan

10 minutes ago, Khan said:

Agree.  Unfortunately, JH joined at a time when the show was on very shaky ground.  They were so preoccupied with weathering the cast departures and building up Julia Duffy as a worthy successor to Delta Burke's antagonist role that poor Jan got lost in the metaphorical shuffle.  Carlene never got the attention that she deserved.

And no one could "replace" Jean Smart/Charlene - somehow, Smart's departure was more impactful to the overall dynamic of the show than Burke's. Charlene really was the emotional heart of that ensemble, IMO. 

@BetterForgotten I know it's the 1990s thread but keeping it real here, 60 Minutes and Murder She Wrote basically carried CBS from when Dallas fell out of the Top 10 until the start of Survivor and CSI. That's what 14 years, yikes.

I guess that piece of sh!t Everybody Loves Raymond did eventually become a hit somewhere in there, too. 

I remember those years CBS seemed dead, yeah. Woof.

31 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

And no one could "replace" Jean Smart/Charlene - somehow, Smart's departure was more impactful to the overall dynamic of the show than Burke's. Charlene really was the emotional heart of that ensemble, IMO. 

Agree.  Even before Delta Burke officially left, there were episodes of DW that featured her very little, if at all, and you hardly ever felt the loss.  Conversely, Jean Smart's departure really left a hole that the show never came close to filling.

 

24 minutes ago, Vee said:

I remember those years CBS seemed dead, yeah. Woof.

To this day, I contend that "The Nanny" was extremely lucky to be on a network that was desperate even for a modest hit.

 

26 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

I guess that piece of sh!t Everybody Loves Raymond did eventually become a hit somewhere in there, too. 

ELR is that rare hit show that nobody ever claims to have watched, lol.

Edited January 19, 20223 yr by Khan

Just now, Khan said:

ELR is that rare hit show that nobody ever claims to have watched, lol.

Yet it dominated TV coverage for years!

7 minutes ago, Vee said:

Yet it dominated TV coverage for years!

Exactly.  I didn't get it either.

12 minutes ago, Vee said:

I remember those years CBS seemed dead, yeah. Woof.

Remember, too, that was also the period when CBS believed David Letterman could topple "The Tonight Show" before they realized he couldn't.

In retrospect, I think they should have courted Arsenio Hall instead, as he was the only one who gave Carson a serious run for his bucks.

Edited January 19, 20223 yr by Khan

10 minutes ago, Khan said:

In retrospect, I think they should have courted Arsenio Hall instead, as he was the only one who gave Carson a serious run for his bucks.

Not sure CBS audiences, then or now, could've handled that.

I will say this: I vividly remember Arsenio being clowned left, right and center in those years by everyone for being a sycophant and what not, especially In Living Color, etc. But he was a force in late night in that era and he was as integral at the time as Letterman, Carson/Leno, etc. I also always appreciated his alleged insistence musical acts perform live, which led to some crazy showstoppers like the MC Hammer appearance (look it up!). And compared to Jimmy Fallon his interviews look like Diane Sawyer. The way people forgot about him or erased him from the history for a lot of years, maybe until very recently, never sat well with me. I always liked him.

11 minutes ago, Khan said:

Exactly.  I didn't get it either.

I just remember years of column inches devoted to trying to sell us on Patricia Heaton, Doris Roberts, etc. being the second coming of like Mary Tyler Moore's cast and I did not get it. They had a huge sendoff too. And where is it today? It's not doing Seinfeld numbers online.

Edited January 19, 20223 yr by Vee

8 minutes ago, Vee said:

The way people forgot about him or erased him from the history for a lot of years, maybe until very recently, never sat well with me.

It never sat well with me either.

Look, I'm not saying I was a diehard Arsenio fan -- for God's sake, I was probably the only one who liked "The Pat Sajak Show"! -- but I believe in giving the devil his due.  Arsenio's show provided the first, real platform to a demographic (young and urban) that late-night had never served before.  In doing so, he also did the impossible: he made Johnny Carson blink.  (And don't tell me Arsenio had nothing at all to do with Johnny's retirement.  I know better.  Johnny saw the writing on the wall, so he got off the stage before he got carried off.  Period.)

Again, a person of color forever alters the television landscape -- I mean, was a late-night with hip-hop influences and without Carson even fathomable before '92? -- but in the official oral and written histories, he gets nary a mention.  Same [!@#$%^&*], different day.

23 minutes ago, Vee said:

And where is it today? It's not doing Seinfeld numbers online.

Which is ironic, since Phil Rosenthal designed ELR as the kind of sitcom you could see being rerun on Nick-at-Nite for an eternity.

I dug this up about it, as well as this accompanying Twitter thread from the author (since a lot of the links in the article are dead): https://www.vibe.com/features/editorial/music-sermon-arsenio-hall-show-629366/

 

Arsenio towards the end was really desperate though and trying hard to drum up interest/controversy, lol. Like that Louis Farrakhan interview. 

Arsenio's bubble seemed to burst really quickly in hindsight. 

The oral history of "The Arsenio Hall Show," and its' impact, not just on late-night TV, but on pop-culture in general, is another book that's still waiting to be written.

1 minute ago, BetterForgotten said:

Arsenio towards the end was really desperate though and trying hard to drum up interest/controversy, lol. Like that Louis Farrakhan interview. 

Arsenio's bubble seemed to burst really quickly in hindsight. 

True.  However, the takeaway here is that, whatever his faults, Arsenio Hall still managed to shake up a part of the TV landscape that, up to that point, had been controlled by one (white, older, conservative) man in particular.  Johnny Carson held almost a death-grip on late-night; Arsenio was the one who pried loose some of his fingers.

Sorry if this takes the discussion even further off-topic, but could you imagine Johnny Carson courting the urban demographic like Arsenio Hall did?  I mean, I just can't see him bringing on, say, Naughty by Nature or Soundgarden without doubling over with laughter, lol.

Edited January 19, 20223 yr by Khan

1 hour ago, BetterForgotten said:

And no one could "replace" Jean Smart/Charlene - somehow, Smart's departure was more impactful to the overall dynamic of the show than Burke's. Charlene really was the emotional heart of that ensemble, IMO. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Charlene and Mary Jo were believable as friends (they were neighbors according to the show's backstory). Mary Jo and Carlene felt more like a sorority's "big" and her "little."