7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I wonder how much Mary Tyler Moore at this point in her career was hurt by people just seeing her as Mary Tyler Moore.

I've wondered that myself.  When you've played not one but two, iconic characters on TV, it's difficult to get viewers to see you as anyone else.  I give MTM credit, though, for trying to break through that Laura Petrie/Mary Richards image and show everyone her full range as an actress in projects like "First, You Cry" and "Ordinary People."  She didn't just keep playing Mary and Laura the way Lucille Ball kept playing Lucy.

 

1 hour ago, Khan said:

I've wondered that myself.  When you've played not one but two, iconic characters on TV, it's difficult to get viewers to see you as anyone else.  I give MTM credit, though, for trying to break through that Laura Petrie/Mary Richards image and show everyone her full range as an actress in projects like "First, You Cry" and "Ordinary People."  She didn't just keep playing Mary and Laura the way Lucille Ball kept playing Lucy.

You're right. And it did work with Ordinary People. And these dramas/dramedies fared better than her variety shows. I sometimes wonder where TV would be now if the dramedies of the late '80s had been more popular with viewers.

Poor Lucy tried once, with Stone Pillow, which I think was mentioned as doing well, but also caused severe health problems.

16 hours ago, DRW50 said:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/denis-arndt-dead-heisenberg-david-e-kelley-shows-1236175515/

The recent passing of Arndt reminded me of Annie McGuire, a few episodes of which are on Youtube. This isn't a bad show, but beyond this premise (liberal wife/conservative husband) rarely working for viewers in such explicit terms, I wonder how much Mary Tyler Moore at this point in her career was hurt by people just seeing her as Mary Tyler Moore. That the very first episode is so heavily about a guest character (who is more compelling than any of the regulars) kind of says it all.

 

Wow, thanks for sharing as I only remember reading about this show years back and had never seen any clips or anything where as I’ve seen Mary, the mediocre ‘85 show surface and I remember being the only possibly being the only person in the country to watch a couple New York News episodes in ‘95 lol

I agree with @Khan’s sentiments. I know Moore’s career tanked after doing that lousy Six Weeks movie after her Ordinary People success.
 

Seems to me although the MTM dramas were running on all cylinders in the 80’s the sitcoms were often subpar, and MTM as whole started producing flop after flop by the time the end of the 80’s/beginning of the 90’s 

Annie Maguire was delayed to the 88 strike. And  CBS paired it up with Dick Van Dyke's awful new sitcom in some misguided attempt at nostalgia 'Dick and Mary back together on CBS!!'

So the chance of younger viewers (anyone under 60) finding it was nil.

The competition was Growing Pains #13 and Head of the Class #20 on ABC and Unsolved Mysteries #17 on NBC.

The CBS schedule was such a mess at the time, I don't know where else they could have placed it.

8 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Poor Lucy tried once, with Stone Pillow, which I think was mentioned as doing well, but also caused severe health problems.

Stone Pillow finished in the Top 10. I still maintain Lucy in a comedy mystery Murder She Wrote type series  might have been worth a try.. The lovable but nosy older lady getting involved in crimes eg undercover at a retirement community, on a senior cruise , a nostalgia film festival etc

21 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Stone Pillow finished in the Top 10. I still maintain Lucy in a comedy mystery Murder She Wrote type series  might have been worth a try.. The lovable but nosy older lady getting involved in crimes eg undercover at a retirement community, on a senior cruise , a nostalgia film festival etc

Maybe like Patricia Routledge's successful followup to Keeping Up Appearances (Hetty Wainthrop?).

I had forgotten they paired Annie McGuire with DVD's show. Lazy choice.

This article discusses CBS' ratings woes in the late 80's. Some weeks only 60 Minutes, MSW and the Sunday Movie made the top 30.

CBS fine -tunes its prime

The network wastes no time in rearranging schedule; gone are 'Miranda,' 'Van Dyke,' 'McGuire,' 'Dirty Dancing' and 'Simon and Simon'

CBS pulled the plug on two shows (Raising Miranda, The Van Dyke Show) and put three others on hiatus (Annie McGuire, Dirty Dancing, Simon and Simon) last week in a reorganization of its prime time schedule. Four of the five -Dirty Dancing, Annie McGuire, The Van Dyke Show and Raising Miranda -were half hour comedies and new to the schedule this season, while the fifth, the one hour adventure Simon and Simon, was in its seventh season.

Last May, when CBS announced its fall schedule, Kim LeMasters, president, CBS Entertainment, said the new schedule would address three major objectives: improving the "critical" 8 -9 p.m. time period, increasing the network's half hour comedies, and broadening CBS's appeal. Much of the burden of achieving those goals fell on the shoulders of CBS's new half hour comedies, namely Raising Miranda, Annie McGuire, The Van Dyke Show and Dirty Dancing. Judging by their ratings performance, and the restructuring, the shows time picture failed to accomplish any of those goals.

"I think in CBS's case," said Jeffrey Logsdon, media analyst, Crowell Weedon, "they probably didn't realize just how far or fast they were sliding. It's like you only have so many fingers to stick in the dike, and when you run out of fingers, you have to accept the fact there's going to be some leakage, and that's what we're seeing now. It's not like they have at least one new show that's doing well -they're all struggling." Despite the failed new shows and continued downward slide, it appears that affiliates continue to support LeMasters and the network's efforts. "Kim [LeMasters] and his advisers are going through the same anguish and harassment that we affiliates are going through," said Neil Kuvin, general manager, WHAS -TV Louisville, Ky. "Some of the problems we're experiencing now," he said, "are the effects of decisions made before Kim took over."

A mistake that Kuvin said has been made this year and in the past is scheduling 10 p.m. shows in the 8 p.m. slot. "I still don't think that 8 p.m. is being paid enough attention to," he said, adding, "Van Dyke was not an 8 p.m. show." Regarding The Van Dyke Show and Annie McGuire, Kuvin said: "When you want to make some noise, you don't do it with bland, vanilla programing."

The inability to program effectively at 8 o'clock has put a strain on CBS's shows later in the schedule. Without a strong lead in, many of the traditionally strong shows such as Dallas, Knots Landing and Falcon Crest, which have shown signs of aging, have experienced further ratings slides. "I used to think my late news would always have an impregnable 10 p.m. lead -in," said Kuvin. "Now I'm not so sure that I can count on that." The problems at 8 p.m. have caused "a crumbling at both ends [8 and 10 p.m.]," he said.

One of the difficulties for CBS in developing successful programing at any time stems from a perception among the production community that going to the third place network will land their show in an unattractive time slot, against stiff competition from NBC and ABC programing. In an effort to assuage some of the concerns that producers have, CBS brought in Barbara Corday as the number two programing executive behind LeMasters. Before coming to CBS, Corday had been president of Columbia - Embassy Television before the merger of that unit with Tri -Star Television last fall.

Corday was pegged to improve relations between the network and the Hollywood community, with hopes of higher quality programing coming to CBS. However, Corday's appointment at CBS has sparked some speculation that the number two designation is merely temporary and LeMasters's stay is only slightly more permanent than some of the shows he introduced to the schedule in the fall. "It seems to be very clear they have hired her as the heir apparent," said a network programing analyst. "She has a standing in the creative community that the other fellow [ LeMasters) does not have."

He suggested that most producers these days are taking most of their shows to NBC and ABC first. A high level source at CBS, however, discounted any sense of urgency among CBS brass and dismissed the speculation that LeMasters's days were numbered. "We know we're in third place," he said. "We don't expect magic and we're not going to hang anybody. We've got a long road ahead of us and it's one we've got to go on with care and patience." Development next year, he said, "will be more focused than it was this year. We can't expect to make a run at the top with another Dick Van Dyke show leading the way."

With the season's race seemingly set for a repeat of last season (NBC first, ABC second and CBS last), CBS is making the following changes in an attempt to keep from falling deeper into third place than it was last year. Raising Miranda, airing on Saturday, 8:30 -9, will have its final broadcast on Dec. 31, and will not return to the schedule.

The Van Dyke Show (Wed. 8 -8:30) had its final broadcast on Dec. 7. Raising Miranda, which premiered on Nov. 5 and will have aired seven episodes before it disappears, ranked last among regular programing, averaging a 6 rating and an 11 share. The Van Dyke Show premiered on Oct. 26 and averaged a 7.3/12 for its six episodes, placing it 74th out of 78 shows.

Dirty Dancing, airing on Saturday, 8- 8:30, will move to the 9:30 -10 slot on Saturday, for two broadcasts on Jan. 7 and 14. It is expected that the show's performance on those dates will determine its future. The CBS Saturday Movie will precede Dirty Dancing on Jan. 7 and 14 at 8 -9:30.

Annie McGuire, starring Mary Tyler Moore, will have its final broadcast in its current Wednesday 8:30 -9 slot on Dec. 28. The series, which will have aired eight episodes, then goes on hiatus and has not been given another time slot. The show ranked 73rd, averaging a 7.5/12 through Dec. II. Simon & Simon, like Annie McGuire, has not been given another time slot, and will have its final broadcast on Saturday, Dec. 31, at 9 -10. The show has additional episodes available, and the network has not made a final determination on the show's future, making it, once again, a candidate for mid -season replacement status.

TV 101, highly acclaimed but low rated, moves to Wednesday, 8 -9, beginning Jan. 4. The show has been airing on Tuesday at 8 -9, against ABC's Who's the Boss? and Roseanne, the latter being the highest -rated new show of the fall. TV 101, produced by Grant Tinker's GTG Entertainment, has averaged a 6.6/10 in its two episodes. To fill the gaps, CBS is premiering Dolphin Cove and Tour of Duty, in addition to bringing back The Smothers Brothers for a limited run. Dolphin Cove, conceived during the writers' strike, stars Frank Converse as an American dolphin researcher who moves to Australia with his two children. The show premieres on Saturday, Jan. 21, at 8 -9. Tour of Duty, a moderate success for CBS last year, will make its second season premiere on Tuesday, Jan. 3, at 8 -9, against ABC's one -two punch of Who's the Boss? and Roseanne, as well as NBC's Matlock.

Tour of Duty's tour may be brief in that time slot, as it becomes increasingly difficult to find an audience for a show the later it premieres in the season, especially in such a competitive time period. The Smothers Brothers, used sporadically earlier this season, returns to CBS for four broadcasts, beginning Saturday, Jan. 28, through Feb. 18, at 9 -10.

The good news for CBS is that it has decided to pick up the back nine episodes of Paradise (Thursday, 9 -10), Murphy Brown (Monday, 9 -9:30) and Wiseguy (Wednesday, 10 -11). Murphy Broum, a new half hour comedy, has performed the best of the three thus far, ranking 39th and averaging a 14.0/21. Wiseguy is ranked 47th with a 12.4/22, and Paradise, also new, is 61st with a 10.7/17.

19 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

I remember being the only possibly being the only person in the country to watch a couple New York News episodes in ‘95 lol

Don't worry, you weren't, lol.  I, too, watched "New York News," but only for MTM.  The rest of the show was AWFUL.  (MTM was reportedly looking to leave the show, too, when CBS announced it had been cancelled.  So, even our Mary knew a dog when she smelled one, lol).

Yeah, as far as sitcoms went, "Newhart" was the only success MTM enjoyed in the '80s; and as wonderful as that cast was, it still paled in comparison to MTM's successes in the '70's.  On the other hand, Allan Burns' shows - "The Duck Factory," "Eisenhower & Lutz" and "FM" - all were what I'd call "noble failures": pretty good shows that had potential, but were being produced by a company and for networks that weren't all that hot about 'em.  I think even Burns himself admitted years later that he had stayed at MTM longer than he should've.  If he had moved on when James L. Brooks and others had, he might've had a more successful career in television.

17 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

I still maintain Lucy in a comedy mystery Murder She Wrote type series might have been worth a try.. The lovable but nosy older lady getting involved in crimes eg undercover at a retirement community, on a senior cruise , a nostalgia film festival etc

I think anything would've been worth a try over "Life with Lucy," lol.

But seriously.  You're not entirely wrong in your opinion, @Paul Raven.  Look at Andy Griffith and Dick Van Dyke: the only successes they had in TV after their respective sitcoms had ended was in mystery shows that were geared toward an older demographic.  Frankly, I don't know why anyone has never approached Carol Burnett with the idea of portraying an older, amateur sleuth (with a yen for goofy disguises?) unless playing the same character every week just doesn't appeal to her.

Edited April 1Apr 1 by Khan

17 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I had forgotten they paired Annie McGuire with DVD's show. Lazy choice.

I agree.  It just shows to go you how much the networks underestimate the viewers' intelligence.  As if we'd watch two, instantly forgettable shows, simply because they "reunited" Dick Van Dyke and Mary Tyler Moore on CBS.  If anything, viewers wanted Dick and Mary back together on the SAME show, not wasting their time (and ours) on two separate shows everyone knew were god-awful and going nowhere fast.

Edited April 1Apr 1 by Khan

3 hours ago, Khan said:

Don't worry, you weren't, lol.  I, too, watched "New York News," but only for MTM.  The rest of the show was AWFUL.  (MTM was reportedly looking to leave the show, too, when CBS announced it had been cancelled.  So, even our Mary knew a dog when she smelled one, lol).

Oh yes I mean I remember CBS tried to hype the show up and I thought it would be good with MTM, Madeline Kahn, and plus Melina Kanakaredes was fresh off GL ready to a make a primetime splash…or not. The show had potential, but the execution was terrible. I gave up after a couple of eps and of course the show ended up being obliterated by Seinfeld as the season progressed. 

23 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

Oh yes I mean I remember CBS tried to hype the show up and I thought it would be good with MTM, Madeline Kahn, and plus Melina Kanakaredes was fresh off GL ready to a make a primetime splash…or not. The show had potential, but the execution was terrible. I gave up after a couple of eps and of course the show ended up being obliterated by Seinfeld as the season progressed. 

The best part of the show was probably that Madeline Kahn hosted SNL again to promote it (although NYN was canceled by the time she hosted).

20 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

This article 

1988/89 was the writer's strike delayed season and so many shows felt off.

20 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

CBS' ratings woes in the late 80's. Some weeks only 60 Minutes, MSW and the Sunday Movie made the top 30.

CBS Sunday lineup of 60 Minutes; Murder, She Wrote; and Sunday Movie kept CBS primetime afloat through that third place primetime mess era 1987-1991.

9 minutes ago, kalbir said:

CBS Sunday lineup of 60 Minutes; Murder, She Wrote; and Sunday Movie kept CBS primetime afloat through that third place primetime mess era 1987-1991.

IDK about anyone else, but I miss the "CBS Sunday Movie."  Even the trashier, more exploitative movies - and let's face it, that was about 95% of 'em - were fun to watch.

Edited April 2Apr 2 by Khan

On 4/1/2025 at 10:38 PM, Khan said:

IDK about anyone else, but I miss the "CBS Sunday Movie."  Even the trashier, more exploitative movies - and let's face it, that was about 95% of 'em - were fun to watch.

LOL! CBS was actually the last network to keep doing a Sunday night movie (before Covid at least) until the mid-00’s or so, although by the later years it was usually fuzzy generic Hallmark Hall of Fame movies before the Hallmark Channel came into existence. 

I miss the days of when the Big 3 and later for a few years there Fox had those movie nights.

Prior to being bought by Disney, ABC’s Sunday Night Movie generally consisted of actual big screen motion pictures.

CBS Sundays and I think what Tuesdays was mostly made for TV movies with a wide variety of sorts which at least made it interesting.

NBC’s Sunday and Monday night movies were a mix of the two although by the 90’s that’s how NBC kept the miniseries tradition alive with a number of “Part 1 Sun night, Part 2 Monday night” movies occurring.

I couldn't find a thread for just movies of the week rather than miniseries and I didn't want to start one without seeing if others thought one should be started, so I'll just put this here for the moment. A TV movie with Ben Masters, Morgan Fairchild, John Hillerman. Someone put it up yesterday and I don't see another version on Youtube (just a promo). This aired October 7, 1988.

After all the buffoonery of Julian Crane it's always interesting to see Ben in these straighter roles.

Edited April 4Apr 4 by DRW50

 A TV Movie thread should be fun.

From the beginnings in the 60's through to their hey day in the 80's and eventual decline in the 2000's.