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Khan

Regarding Female-Centric Shows and Behind-the-Scenes Dramas

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10 minutes ago, Cat said:

@Khan @Vee Maybe I'm the one acting like Shonda and giving Washington a free pass. He did refer to TR Knight as a slur while in a fight with Dempsey. I always felt IW was somewhat unfairly treated by other members of the cast; at the same time, I recognize that it was his own mouth that got his ass fired, and that Heigl took the opportunity to bring it out into the open in order to force Shonda's hand, because Rimes did NOT want to fire him.

 

I could tell. And it drove me nuts, because IW just kept digging himself deeper. He kept talking about what happened, blaming other people and making himself out to be the real victim when he was the one that called Knight a slur. Meanwhile Rhimes seemed to just sit around letting him run his mouth, and finally sighed, rolled her eyes and did something about the bigotry. That's what insulted me - that a castmember making a bigoted ass of himself was the priority, and the gay man the inconvenience.

 

Katherine Heigl is certainly her own worst enemy and has made her share of major mistakes, but in the light of day today as we talk about more female parity, is at least part of her and other women like her's problem that they were in the wrong industry at the wrong time? Look at the moment: We admire Pompeo for her drive, tenacity and candor in her recent interview - an education for any of us, including myself who didn't watch the show much and never cared much for her performances; despite my opinion of her show, she's tough and smart and deserves what she's got. And we hail women like Bette Davis and Debra Winger for being 'difficult' and individualistic in their heydays, but at the time they too were often trashed. Heigl had some valid points to make in her moment in the spotlight, but she also made huge errors and put her foot in her mouth and bit the hand that fed her. She also overreached trying to take on too much movie work and laughable dramatic/action roles on TV. But was she always entirely wrong? Don't we applaud women today who say some of the same stuff she said then?

 

Either way: Heigl's drama aside, I didn't let that or her enter into my take on T.R. Knight and Washington. AFAIC that is about his behavior which he kept compounding and making worse, and Shonda Rhimes' apparent unwillingness to face up to it because for all her claims of being a strident, forthright, take-no-guff showrunner she tried very, very hard to turn a blind eye to homophobic behavior on-set because of who her fave was. I can't forgive that in full until she comments on it, which I doubt she ever will. But I also know that at least it would not happen the same way today.

Edited by Vee

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47 minutes ago, Vee said:

 

I could tell. And it drove me nuts, because IW just kept digging himself deeper. He kept talking about what happened, blaming other people and making himself out to be the real victim when he was the one that called Knight a slur. Meanwhile Rhimes seemed to just sit around letting him run his mouth, and finally sighed, rolled her eyes and did something about the bigotry. That's what insulted me - that a castmember making a bigoted ass of himself was the priority, and the gay man the inconvenience.

 

Katherine Heigl is certainly her own worst enemy and has made her share of major mistakes, but in the light of day today as we talk about more female parity, is at least part of her and other women like her's problem that they were in the wrong industry at the wrong time? Look at the moment: We admire Pompeo for her drive, tenacity and candor in her recent interview - an education for any of us, including myself who didn't watch the show much and never cared much for her performances; despite my opinion of her show, she's tough and smart and deserves what she's got. And we hail women like Bette Davis and Debra Winger for being 'difficult' and individualistic in their heydays, but at the time they too were often trashed. Heigl had some valid points to make in her moment in the spotlight, but she also made huge errors and put her foot in her mouth and bit the hand that fed her. She also overreached trying to take on too much movie work and laughable dramatic/action roles on TV. But was she always entirely wrong? Don't we applaud women today who say some of the same stuff she said then?

 

Either way: Heigl's drama aside, I didn't let that or her enter into my take on T.R. Knight and Washington. AFAIC that is about his behavior which he kept compounding and making worse, and Shonda Rhimes' apparent unwillingness to face up to it because for all her claims of being a strident, forthright, take-no-guff showrunner she tried very, very hard to turn a blind eye to homophobic behavior on-set because of who her fave was. I can't forgive that in full until she comments on it, which I doubt she ever will. But I also know that at least it would not happen the same way today.

 

You make me feel ashamed for my defense of IW and my dogging Heigl and Dempsey. Heigl I always felt wasn't so much sticking up for her friend TR Knight, but trying to get rid of a rival from the set. As TR Knight intimated at the time, Heigl brought this issue to the press and essentially outed him when he was not yet 'out' to members of his family or the general public. I always felt he was being used as a pawn in a wider game, but that could be projection on my part. However, he was definitely the fall guy in this whole mess: a season or so later, Knight left the show/Shonda wrote him out. It can't have been a pleasant working environment for him either before IW was fired or after, knowing the showrunner and some members of the crew did not want IW to go.

 

Perhaps I have blinders on or some knee-jerk misogyny when it comes to Heigl; it could well be that I frowned on her actions back then but today would be applauding her for calling attention to a bigot in the cast and standing up for her gay friend. Perhaps it is her delivery rather than her message itself. I will def rethink my view of the actress, even though her approach/attitude rubs me the wrong way a lot of the time.

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Well, I'm definitely not trying to shame you, so I'm sorry for that. And I find Katherine Heigl as annoying as everyone else does, lol. But I do wonder how people would react if she was just now saying the same things in 2018. We valorize actresses louder than she was today, so maybe we should all rethink it.

 

I also don't think it's fair to tar the T.R. Knight situation with guilt by association based on how we feel about Heigl - we can suggest she used it to her advantage and it's extremely possible she did, but for my money that doesn't change what IW did or how Rhimes IMO mishandled it. I just think about the gay actor in the middle of that situation.

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41 minutes ago, Vee said:

Well, I'm definitely not trying to shame you, so I'm sorry for that. And I find Katherine Heigl as annoying as everyone else does, lol. But I do wonder how people would react if she was just now saying the same things in 2018. We valorize actresses louder than she was today, so maybe we should all rethink it.

 

I also don't think it's fair to tar the T.R. Knight situation with guilt by association based on how we feel about Heigl - we can suggest she used it to her advantage and it's extremely possible she did, but for my money that doesn't change what IW did or how Rhimes IMO mishandled it. I just think about the gay actor in the middle of that situation.

 

Naw, I was shaming myself! :lol: And I wasn't trying to change the narrative with regards to IW or SR's actions, just making a speculative judgement about Heigl's underlying motives. Which again may be projection on my part against Heigl.

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Aside from T.R. Knight and everyone else not directly involved, I think everyone in the Heigl/Washington/Dempsey/Rhimes et al. drama has a ton to answer for.

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20 hours ago, Vee said:

Didn't Sasha Alexander get her head blown off on NCIS and then shade the show on her way out the door?

 

Apparently early on in the show, the hours were ridiculously long due to Donald Bellisario taking forever with his scripts and generally being a difficult micromanager; some days went as long as 20 hours.  The cast would consistently complain, but Alexander was said to be the loudest voice on set, to the point where she asked to be released from her contract.  It was only when Mark Harmon threatened to leave a year or so later that Bellisario was let go.

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I know it’s not an all female cast, but mostly, I wonder how the relationships between the ladies on The Cosby Show, aside from Cosby vs. Bonet. 

 

The “Living Single” Girls seem to have gotten along great. 

Edited by Dr Neil Curtis

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19 minutes ago, Dr Neil Curtis said:

The “Living Single” Girls seem to have gotten along great. 

 

Wow, I didn't even THINK about LS.  Thanks, Neil, for reminding me.

28 minutes ago, Dr Neil Curtis said:

I know it’s not an all female cast, but mostly, I wonder how the relationships between the ladies on The Cosby Show, aside from Cosby vs. Bonet. 

 

I think they have remained in touch over the years, although I'm sure Phyllicia, for one, has a few words for Keshia. ;)

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35 minutes ago, All My Shadows said:

Going way out on a limb here, but the various ladies from Petticoat Junction - I'm hoping I'm correct in assuming they all got along.

 

Well, for sure, they were going to get along w/ Linda Kaye Henning, since her dad was the show's creator and EP. ;)

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Surprisingly, the Melrose Place set seemed to have very little toxic behavior going on. Which is surprising since you have Heather Locklear as the eternal guest star (and presumably, always the highest paid cast member) and then there was the fact that the cast dated each other, so there was plenty of room for conflicts. The worst thing I've heard is that is that Heather had issues with Antonio Sabato Jr, which is why Jack presumably went flying and a brother Bobby was quickly invented.

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How about men vs. men? The early years of the original Law & Order were no picnic. Cast members have gone on the record as saying that the major feuds were Chris Noth/George Dzundza, Chris Noth/Paul Sorvino, Michael Moriarty/Almost Everybody. Noth and Dzundza have both owned up to it. Noth and Dann Florek said in one of the DVD extras that things really started to turn the tide in the third season when Jerry Orbach joined the show as Det. Lennie Briscoe. They said that he just brought such a calmness to the proceedings as well as the joy of being there (he was a fan of the show before becoming a cast member, and had a guest appearance on a S2 episode as a defense attorney).

 

Age and time seems to have mellowed a lot of the old feuds. As far as I can tell, Chris Noth has since mended fences with both Dzundza and Sorvino. I don't think Michael Moriarty ever publicly made up with Dick Wolf, but has acknowledged that L&O/EADA Ben Stone was and still is very important to him. He has since retired from acting and lives in British Columbia. 

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On 2/14/2018 at 8:02 PM, Khan said:

 

Wow, I didn't even THINK about LS.  Thanks, Neil, for reminding me.

 

I think they have remained in touch over the years, although I'm sure Phyllicia, for one, has a few words for Keshia. ;)

What happened with Phylicia and Keshia? 

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On 2018-02-13 at 9:18 AM, Cat said:

 

 

With SATC, SJP was of course not just an actress collecting a wage; she helped pitch the project, made sure she headlined the show, and quickly became an EP. She should and could have made the set more inclusive. After all, she and Michael Patrick King were best buds, and she had lunch on-set with Cynthia Nixon and Kristin Davis. When they went to Mexico and Morocco to do the movies, she stayed at the same luxe hotels with them. It was KC who was purposely excluded from these luncheons, or who was housed in a different hotel from the other three. SJP had chances to make the set a civil place (even if KC and SJP probably would not want to eat lunch together every day). She had the power to make the changes she wanted to the show, to the working environment, and she chose not to. And now she's getting her friends like Molly Shannon and Andy Cohen to be her mouthpieces and breathe, aghast, "how dare you" in Kim Cattrall's direction.

 

P.S.: I really enjoyed Scarecrow & Mrs. King back in the day. I also loved an NBC show called Partners in Crime starring Lynda Carter and Loni Anderson which only lasted, like, 10 episodes. I wonder how that set was? For some reason, I imagine Lynda Carter must have been pretty easygoing.

 

As you’ve said about SJP: she had the power to make that set civil and comfortable and chose not to. In fact, she appears to have actively cultivated an uncomfortable environment for Kim Cattrall. Andy Cohen’s comments and gleeful mean girl behaviour with SJP on WWHL have turned me against him entirely (reiterating the comments Kathy Griffin made about him) and while I love Molly Shannon and think she is very talented, she has swallowed the SJP Kool-Aid enthusiastically and I think she should have kept her mouth shut because she has no idea what Kim Cattrall endured. At the same time, Molly’s Post SNL career was very lean for a few years there, so I can understand her need for self preservation. 

 

Star Jones was on a Chicago television program this week and backed up Kil Cattrall’s version of things. Star is a friend of Kim’s and just said that it was Kim who had to deal with an uncomfortable set, not anyone else. 

 

I can’t imagine Lynda Carter and Loni Anderson would not have had fun together. Loni is very intelligent - far beyond her image, and Lynda has many friends, so I hope that was a happy set. 

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