Late-Night Talk Shows

[Max]

I personally was underwhelmed by Fallon's performance thus far, and am sad to see Leno go. It's interesting that when it comes to Leno, perception of him usually depends upon one's ideological viewpoint. Liberals often thought that Jay's antics were inferior to others, while conservatives always felt that he related to middle America better than his competition.

Although Leno has stated that he is a social liberal and an economic conservative, those who most miss his show probably are solid conservatives, like myself. I think that GOP politicians felt a lot more comfortable going on his show, while Democratic politicians feel more comfortable going on Letterman's show. Letterman's comic brilliance is undeniable, but he has turned off conservative viewers as his show has become more politically left-leaning. (Actually, from what I remember, Letterman's political leanings were never obvious until the 2000 election aftermath. And, IMO, it just got more partisan from there.)

Anyway, I am sure that there are people on this message board who feel the complete opposite as I do: that Leno is a conservative tool and that Letterman displays no bias. A debate about this won't change people's minds (although I am curious as to what other members of this board think), but I am wondering as to whether you agree with my hypothesis that perception of Leno falls along political lines.

This is not a thread concerning politics, and I want to make clear that the scope of this thread should include any thoughts one may have about any late-night television show in history. (I was just using the political angle as a way of sharing my thoughts not just about Letterman and Leno, but my genuine sadness over the latter leaving.) Truth be told, I do think that Letterman is the more original comic, despite my personal preference for Leno. I believe that Leno was the better choice for the Tonight Show host (given that the show is as Middle America as a celebrity show could get), and commend him for his incredible ratings dominance. In the end, I think it worked out best, since I am uncertain if Leno (despite the ratings dominance over Letterman) had enough strength to start his own CBS show in the 1990's. Letterman is actually really lucky that he wound up at CBS (instead of Tonight Show host), since NBC has a history of turning on its top talent.

Something totally unrelated to Letterman/Leno is the whole Rivers/Carson feud. I really thought that this whole incident showed what a vindictive man Johnny was. I actually can understand Carson's initial anger over not being notified by Rivers of her talk show (prior to the official announcement). But any hatred towards Rivers should have been dropped the moment her Fox talk show failed. The fact that Carson--despite defeating Rivers in the ratings--held a grudge for the rest of his life makes no sense. As some may know, he never again talked to Rivers, even after Rivers' husband's suicide and after she expressed her condolences over the death of one of Carson's sons.

Here's actually a YouTube clip of Carson and Rivers, before their falling out:

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[quartermainefan]

Jay Leno was just never funny.   Jimmy Fallon I find can be very funny but he also puts his guests to good use in funny bits.   Leno would just sit their and use his guests to set himself up for yet another unfunny wisecrack.  Letterman does do similar with his guests, talking at them trying to finesse any quip he can, but his at least have the potential to be funny.

 

Carson still remains the best.  He would actually talk to his guests and allow them to be funny.  He would have Joan Rivers sit down at the chair and then say something as vague as "so how's things?" allowing her to go on a 10 minute joke fest where she got all the jokes and he would just laugh.  Leno and Letterman never allow the guest to be the one to get the laughs like that.   Carson would actually have conversations with his guests and his guests might even talk to each other, but Leno and Letterman killed that ides for good, turning the shows into less talk and more comedy bits.   His last full episode with Robin Williams and Bette Midler was a classic.

 

[Max]

Qfan, I appreciate the way that you explained why Carson was so great. Johnny was still before my time, so it's nice to have a first-hand account of what it was like to be a fan of his. I am no expert on late-night television, so I was surprised to read just how different Carson's interview approach was in comparison to the Letterman/Leno method.

On a superficial note, I don't like Jimmy's new set. (I didn't care for Leno's last set, either.) I think that it is just too brown and black, whereas the blue colors on his former show were much more welcoming. In my opinion, the ugliest set pieces are the "chessboard tiles" on the wall, because that design lacks symmetry (e.g., some "squares" on the "chessboard" are "missing"). Additionally, I was surprised at how small the audience area is. Obviously space is at a premium in New York, but this set feels so much smaller than the other New York shows of present and past.

Regardless of how you feel about him personally, I thought it was incredibly stupid for NBC to push Leno out (as he was even on top of the prized demos). But I must acknowledge that Fallon "gets" the younger generation and its technology in a way that Leno and Letterman don't. Today's youth seem to love the SNL-like sketches that Fallon performs, even though I personally find few of them funny. I do wonder how the Lorne Michaels influence will play out among older viewers (and even younger ones living in between the two coasts), but NBC has come to the conclusion that experiencing a decline in total viewership is worth it if Fallon can cause a rise in demos.

I am not a Conan O'Brien fan, but I thought that he was a less awkward fit for the Tonight Show than Fallon is. (It is sometimes said that Conan is an acquired taste, but I think this adage is even more true of Fallon.) From what little data we have to go on, Fallon did better in his first week than Conan. (Both did really well in the first two nights, but only Conan saw his viewership drop later in his first week.) In any event, I think that NBC is going to stick with Jimmy for at least a few years, even if his ratings do start to decline. That's in part because NBC has no Plan B (as the network can't credibly ask Leno back again), and also because the network does not want another public relations mess on its hands.

[DRW50]

Lorne Michaels' material is very dated and backward, so if there is any young demo appreciation of this show I doubt it will be because of him.

As for Leno, I just think they knew it was a matter of time before he had to go.

My objection to him was never his political views, more his smarminess.

[Sundance]

I miss the Jay Leno show. I always preferred his show over Letterman's show. I hope Jay will be a guest on various shows.

[DRW50]

I should also point out that Lorne Michaels is somewhat conservative, so it's not ever going to lapse into liberalism gone wild.

[Gray Bunny]

For me, Jay Leno's show is a nice, familiar feeling. From the wide "night club act" set, the L.A. presence, and the overall look and Jay's mostly P.C. attitude, it's a warm, familiar feeling. Having been 9 years old when Jay took over Tonight, it's been a stable TV institution for me for so long. I never warmed to David Letterman. Now that Fallon is host, I feel the balance of NYC vs. L.A. is lopsided, and Fallon and Seth Meyers' sets look way too similar.

Fallon and Kimmel are excellent at showcasing skits and scenarios that become viral sensations online, something Leno and Letterman rarely ever accomplish.

For me, though, my favorite comedian by far is Jimmy Kimmel on ABC. I get his humor. I've made a point in watching him for years now. Still, I'll miss the idea that Leno's show is the alternate option in late night TV.

(P.S. Does anyone watch the guy that comes on after Letterman?)

[Max]

DRW, I am sorry if I gave the impression that Fallon's show would become heavily liberal in tone, because I realize that Jimmy largely avoids political topics. My main objection to the Michaels/Fallon approach is that I don't care for the SNL-type skits. Apart from that, however, I do think that Fallon's show has improved in its second week, mainly because his monologues have gotten better.

Gray Bunny, Kimmel's by far the most edgy of the late-night comics, which I think is generally a good thing. If this makes any sense, I don't watch him because he is just "too hip" for me (and consequently I sometimes have trouble getting his humor).

I wish I watched more of Craig Ferguson, because I find him to be the most likeable of all the late-night hosts.

[All My Shadows]

I just never ever ever had an interest in any of these shows at all. I guess they're just not for me.

There was a promo on TV a few nights ago about Fallon taking over The Tonight Show, and he's babbling on and on about how there's gonna be "some kid" out there begging his parents to let him stay up to watch the Jimmy Fallon show. What?

[Mr. Vixen]

I like Kimmel, Fallon, and Chelsea Handler

[Max]

Even despite my personal preference for Leno's show, I have never been a die-hard fan of late-night television. I just don't have the time to watch on a daily basis, and many of the jokes (on even the best of these shows) aren't very funny. However, with all the publicity surrounding The Tonight Show, I wished I had watched more of Leno, and feel like I didn't sufficiently appreciate him prior to his retirement.

The interviews are generally the best part of late-night television, and the main reason why I ever tune in. However, what really fascinates me is the behind-the-scenes soapy drama that surrounds these shows. It is always so interesting how a host's "nice guy" public persona usually doesn't match the reality, and that--IMO--probably all of these men are very ruthless when it comes to their professional lives. The Carson/Rivers feud, in particular, has been able to hold my attention because it seems so contradictory that such a beloved figure could be so nasty. (Although I am by no means suggesting that Rivers was totally blameless in the matter.)

[DRW50]

Watched a little of some strained, endless monologue Seth Meyers was giving to the Earth because of the damage done via climate change. The writing was not good, but what surprised me was how bad his delivery was (he couldn't even remember some of his lines). I guess 15 years in live late night were for nothing.

[Max]

I thought that Joan Rivers' recent "joke" about the president and the first lady was in very poor taste. (However, I don't want anybody to think I am hypocritical about my free speech beliefs, as Joan has the constitutional right to say what she wants when insulting any president and first lady.) I think an apology would be a graceful thing to do, as I have said things about both Obama and Clinton that I regret.

This in no way excuses her behavior, but I believe that Rivers has never gotten over the events of 86-87 (her falling out with Carson, the failure of her show, and her husband's suicide), and remains understandably bitter. I honestly don't know why she has been especially erratic lately, to be honest (witness also the fact that she left an interview in protest).

Letterman and Rivers were able to have some good fun in reference to her recent behavior:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONgN2Hgz3XE

Here's a clip, posted a few months ago, of a 1986 interview Johnny had with Joan. I believe that this aired within a few weeks before she announced her new FOX show (and from that moment forward, the two of them never spoke again):

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Most interesting is the fact that Joan wore the same dress that night as she did on her first Tonight Show appearance in 1965. Of course, Rivers chose that outfit knowing full well that this would (likely) be her last time with Carson, while Johnny had no such idea as to the earthquake that was about to erupt.

A PBS documentary about Carson has also been posted on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BFmv7_Gy90

I never thought that Seth Meyers was that engaging or funny. Perhaps he got his job because he is in favor with Lorne Michaels and the top NBC executives.

[Gray Bunny]

Seth Meyers was alright for the weekend update on SNL, but I can't even sit through one episode of his Late Night show.

[Max]

Gray Bunny, this is off-topic, but your miniature schnauzer is so cute! They are my favorite dog breed, and my user name, Max, was chosen because Max was the first miniature schnauzer I had.