7 minutes ago, Khan said:

Yep, lol.

True. Guza and his team seemed fond of pissing on the very couple that made GH a juggernaut and changed (for better or for worse) the genre forever. Which was their right, I guess, except, to me, it seemed as if they were shaming their own audience for ever loving Luke and Laura. Now, maybe America was messed up to fall in love with a love story between a rapist and his teenaged victim, but I'm certainly not gonna go out of my way to make them feel bad about it.

That's what I was most put off by about the Guza years. He hated everything about GH. He likely resented having to slum on a soap instead of his failed film career. I can't even say he had a righteous objection to Luke and Laura. It wasn't the rape that he seemed to object to as much as he objected to every single part of the show. This is the same writer who had a woman told that she was only worthwhile as a person when she was bleeding in the snow after being raped, and we were meant to agree with this.

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by DRW50

10 minutes ago, carolineg said:

If Tony wanted to play a different character like Bill I assume other soaps would have snapped him up.

Probably. But those other soaps would have learned the hard way that Luke and Laura didn't capture the public's attention because of Geary.

9 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

This is the same writer who had a woman told that she was only worthwhile as a person when she was bleeding in the snow after being raped, and we were meant to agree with this.

IKR? And I'm supposed to feel sad, because Lucky and Liz still aren't back together? Sure, Jan!

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by Khan

4 minutes ago, Khan said:

Probably. But those other soaps would have learned the hard way that Luke and Laura didn't capture the public's attention because of Geary.

Perhaps, but maybe it would have knocked Geary a peg down or two and he would have been more grateful for Luke and GH.

Just now, carolineg said:

Perhaps, but maybe it would have knocked Geary a peg down or two and he would have been more grateful for Luke and GH.

True. AFAIK, Genie Francis has never come across as ungrateful for Laura, even as she was playing other roles that, frankly, were wastes of her time and talent. She's just wanted TPTB to accord her with the same level of respect that they always accorded Geary.

1 minute ago, Khan said:

True. AFAIK, Genie Francis has never come across as ungrateful for Laura, even as she was playing other roles that, frankly, were wastes of her time and talent. She's just wanted TPTB to accord her with the same level of respect that they always accorded Geary.

I think Genie has some resentment toward Laura as well, and that is part of why she wanted to play roles that were meant to be more interesting (like Caera and whoever the hell she was on Y&R), but she always seemed more clear-eyed than Tony. I guess because she never got away with what he got away with. She also had to put up with much more than he did.

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by DRW50

Thanks @Vee

The standout comment to me seems to be Bill was just an unconventional dad, not a bad father. I believe that Bill would believe that, and, as a result, Tony Geary should have. The truth is though Bill was a sh*t father who dumped Sly with his grandparents, then Finian, and then whoever else would watch him (Jenny, typically). I think an argument could be made that when he was with Fred and Angela Eckert that Bill was off at sea and providing for his kid. In the initial backstory, this was a sort of noble act where Bill's work on the ship was less about the life of adventure and more about the big pay day that came with that type of work.

To examine Bill as a father would mean to look into Bill's own father, Fred. As presented in early in the run, Fred was a loud, boisterous family man who was also maintained a family feud that was tinged with ethnic bigotry. He was also a successful small business owner. Fred is the first of the Eckerts that are dumped. I think later Fred was described as more complicated and possibly abusive. I don't think that is present in those February-May, 1991 episodes, but I think it's possible Fred could have mellowed over the years. Making Fred a recovering alcoholic may have given Fred's history a little more nuance explaining how Fred could be a wonderful grandfather and still create the man that Bill became down the line.

I think by the time you introduce Nancy Eckert it can almost be seen as a way to justify Bill as a parent because Nancy was so much worse. I haven't seen much of Nancy-Bill interaction but they seem incredibly toxic. It's hard to imagine what the thought was that drove Bill to Nancy. I imagine we are suppose to see Fred's strict disciplinarian ways as the impetus for Bill's departure from the Eckert home not necessarily In a super negative way, but just a catalyst for Bill's independence. The Eckert parents characterization changes several times (I'm more aware of Angela's), and Angela's evolution into a status conscious domineering matriarch who helped conceal Jenny's miscarriage from a fling with a much older man sheds a different layer on the Eckert family.

It is Bill's own actions for me though that make him a crap father. He chooses the women in his life over his son (Julia, Holly, and Victoria) as well as going off on those adventures and leaving Sly at home when he has already lost one parent, a grandparent, and never been in a stable environment for long. There could have been fun tension of Bill trying to be a good dad and just failing miserably, but Bill's parenting style seems very ahead of its time. He wants to be more of Sly's friend than anything else.

By 1993, they have Sly pretty consistently calling him out on it and pair Sly and Scotty in an inspired friendship that adds such depth later when Dominique is dying and she wants to give Scotty a child.

Michael Logan is right though that so many writers had their fingers in 1991-1993 that it's hard for any character to find a solid, consistent footing in that period (though I enjoyed many of them). I suspect one of the greatest influences on end stage Bill Eckert may have been, ironically, Anne Howard Bailey who was a consultant in the spring of 1992 during the headwriterless period. I suspect she may have been the one to create the San Sebastian tale which has a very mid 1980s vibe to it from what I've seen. Out of that story, with Bill away, I think they started to lean into Bill as the deadbeat dad.

I also don't think Bill as bad father was anything new to the show. Monica and Alan are pretty consistently skewered in those years for the way A.J. turned out and people insisted that their bad parenting was to blame. So Bill wasn't alone. I do feel it became part of that unique perspective that made him interesting. I also think that Bill dying protecting Sly and Lucky shows that the show didn't think Bill was without worth or redemption. Good or bad aside, the truth is that Bill wasn't the father Sly needed and that was his fatal flaw that made him fascinating and yet a hard sell as a romantic lead.

I am nearly positive that Bill's origins are in Gloria Monty's 1990 proposed soap opera project that was set in Portland and also to be filmed there. I think we would have gotten Bill Eckert without Geary, but Geary was brought back to for impact on the ratings. If Bill was played by someone else, I wouldn't be surprised if Monty had axed Bill before 1991 was over. In his initial form, Bill is just boring because the connections to the canvas aren't there. The romance with Bobbie is quickly aborted as is the blooming romance with Carol Pulaski (who's entire family was introduced and quickly faded into the woodwork). At the end of the day, I do suspect Geary may have sabotaged the more effective version of Bill who took over the cannery with Paul, was business rivals with Jenny's husband Ned, and was still in love with Julia even though he killed her father. I doubt Geary fought against Holly and the San Sebastian story and I'm not sure how he felt about the Victoia Parker gothic mystery but I don't think either suited Bill well. For me, Bill at his best is grounded in Port Charles possibly feeling restless, but deeply involved in the fabric of the town.

I think Bill is a fascinating creature and I do wonder what Labine might have done long-term with Bill, but I doubt this was ever truly a consideration.

Could I just express one more time how much I love reading your analyses of all things soaps, @dc11786 ? You always bring so much insight that I'm often left feeling breathless. And everything you've written about Bill Eckert is spot-ass-on, too, lol.

1 hour ago, Khan said:

Which might explain why GF and TG apparently weren't very close BTS. Because, other than being one-half of a fictitious couple on a daytime soap opera, what could you possibly have in common with someone 14 years your senior (and vice-verse for Geary)?

I think at times their relationship was very close and intimate - in another part of the E! interview he says his bond with Genie is 'more intimate than sex,' and he goes on and on in other print interviews in the '90s and early 2000s about the the trust between them, how everything she does is gold and elevates him, etc. He was rhapsodic for praise with her personally and how good she was for him as an actor all the way up to the mid-late 2000s. And at other times (including some of those times) I think their BTS relationship was very difficult, cold and remote. I think it waxed and waned a lot and was probably codependent or toxic sometimes, especially when they were both younger. I think that's the nature of the beast in daytime, and in the era they came up in. Especially a tempestuous, often ego-driven gay or bisexual man in that swinging/closeted era vs. a very young girl with her own issues, struggles and faults.

I think Guza is also more nuanced than we often give him credit for. All of his flaws and faults are very real and not exaggerated. But he did come up at GH in its glory years under Monty, and he did work on many soaps and did good work. I do think he resented being stuck at GH by the 2000s, and I think it often showed in the work product. But I don't think he ever truly hated soaps or GH. They have been in his blood a long time (and I think one of the most nuanced and character-driven albeit dark threads on Beyond the Gates this past year is very likely his work). I think Guza hated what had been left of his career in middle age, and gradually took it out on GH.

Speaking of intimacy: I was poking around in fall '89 and was startled to see Bobbie and Ruby sit down the day after Tony's proposal and have Bobbie express qualms about the marriage as she basically says they've never been physically intimate together, just 'best friends.' Did Tony just spring this on her without them being officially romantically involved before then?

I'm loving this discussion. Bill Eckart perhaps should have had more time if they kept him around alongside Luke's return. Have Geary play both roles and perhaps do something with that. But then Geary's schedule became more limited as the years went on so that would've created quite the problem later down the line.

There's a theme of bitterness and resentment here especially with Tony Geary and Bob Guza Jr, which begs the question Why stay if unhappy? Why make your reputation more sour and toxic when a clean break from the soap would've done wonders for their mental health at the time. In many ways, Geary in his later years merged the personas of Luke/Bill together due to boredom.

Luke's era under JFP was tough to watch at times. If not entirely.

9 minutes ago, BadBoy93 said:

I'm loving this discussion. Bill Eckart perhaps should have had more time if they kept him around alongside Luke's return. Have Geary play both roles and perhaps do something with that.

I don't think so. As we've noted, they tried everything under the sun with Bill in almost 3 years. He kept rapidly changing, and his many incarnations were something Geary talked about at length in period interviews. It didn't work because the character onscreen just didn't.

I do wish the Fluke story had been Bill as originally intended. It would've been less messy for Luke overall, and allowed Geary to re-delineate them again and come to terms with the differences between the men. But Carlivati had to have his shock twist. As it is today, I'd still bring back Sly Eckert for an arc or something. Eckert's Bakery is also still alive, and regularly mentioned or featured onscreen by characters who enjoy their baked goods (their takeout box was shown again just a few days ago).

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by Vee

19 minutes ago, Vee said:

I do wish the Fluke story had been Bill as originally intended. It would've been less messy for Luke overall, and allowed Geary to re-delineate them again and come to terms with the differences between the men. But Carlivati had to have his shock twist. As it is today, I'd still bring back Sly Eckert for an arc or something. Eckert's Bakery is also still alive, and regularly mentioned or featured onscreen by characters who enjoy their baked goods (their takeout box was shown again just a few days ago).

It's a shame they didn't try to figure out something with Sly. The actor is very good.

At least he wasn't killed, I guess.

25 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

It's a shame they didn't try to figure out something with Sly. The actor is very good.

He was quite good, but I don't think Glenn Harris acts anymore. I would just recast for an arc, with Laura and the family. (You know I once had him pegged as a short-term love interest for Sasha to write her out lol, but that moment has passed)

I do think RC had intended to have both Sly and Jenny appear for the original Fluke saga in 2014-15. Those were the rumors at the time, anyway. These came out well before the rewrite. And IIRC Ned or someone actually spoke to Jenny on the phone, or maybe it was Julia.

Edited 44 minutes ago44 min by Vee

4 minutes ago, Vee said:

He was quite good, but I don't think Glenn Harris acts anymore. I would just recast for an arc, with Laura and the family. (You know I once had him pegged as a short-term love interest for Sasha to write her out lol, but that moment has passed)

I do think RC had intended to have both Sly and Jenny appear for the original Fluke saga in 2014-15. Those were the rumors at the time, anyway. These came out well before the rewrite. And IIRC Ned or someone actually spoke to Jenny on the phone, or maybe it was Julia.

I was thinking more at the time. I agree a recast now would be the inevitable choice. I think if they aren't going to do much more with the current Spencers, bringing in some Eckerts could work (maybe he could be paired with Liz - in a world where she gets a story).