As The World Turns Discussion Thread

[DRW50]

They stopped looking alike, yes.

[Michael]

Thanks. That really annoys me! It was such an integral part of Sabrina's intro.

[DRW50]

They said they wouldn't do that again because of how it exhausted Julianne Moore.

[saynotoursoap]

Frankly, Marland would have been better off not pursuing that aspect of the storyline. I loved the mystery, and for once, I did not mind a slight retconning of plot because Marland made it work very well within established history. However, for all of Doug's strong points, some of his storytelling was a bit ridiculous, Identical cousins is fine for a low brow sitcom like The Patty Duke Show, but it had no place on As the World Turns, particularly at a time when it was attempting to counter program the comic book plotting of One Life to Live on ABC. I know others will disagree, and that is fine, but I have never been fond of twin stories on soaps. I think they are generally formulaic and silly. There was no reason why ATWT could not have gotten another actress resembling Julianne Moore to play Sabrina. Do not even get me started on the whole Seth takes Sabrina's virginity at the Snyder pond thinking she is Frannie debacle.

[DRW50]

I have a soft spot for twin stories, mostly because I like the whole impersonation aspect and because I like to see an actor stretched (this is mostly when a twin story is Vicky/Marley, or Adam/Stuart, not a few month dual role.) But I totally agree that there was no real need to have this with Frannie/Sabrina. The idea of a doppleganger, taking over Frannie's life, seemed to be the point of the resemblance, but that story wasn't followed through. There was no true comeuppance for Sabrina. She got Seth, for a while anyway, and Frannie, who was the more interesting character, was phased out of the show during Moore's last year in the role. If they were going to do this then I think Sabrina should have been a real bitch, not misunderstood or easily forgiven. This could have created some juicy conflict with Barbara, not to mention Nancy and Kim (if Nancy wanted to strongly rein her in and Kim was reluctant).

I read somewhere that the reason for the dual role was that P&G was considering firing Julianne Moore for not being attractive enough, and Marland created a drab role for her to show how beautiful she was as Frannie. I'm not sure if that's true or not.

Edited August 14, 2011 by CarlD2

[saynotoursoap]

Yes, and it was not moral. Irna failed to see this, and it led to her being disassociated with the series permanently, though you have to understand what she had in mind. Irna found the Dan/Liz/Paul story immoral because Dan and Liz loved one another and had children together, yet Liz married Paul, who loved her, though she did not return his love. Basically, Irna thought that Liz was unnecessarily hurting the two brothers, as well as herself, and the idea that the two brothers coveted the same woman was wrong.

As Irna saw it, the difference with the Kim/Bob/Jennifer plot was that Bob and Kim did not love one another. During a period when Jennifer and Bob were headed for divorce, Bob and Kim had an unexpected one-night stand. There was no love involved or intentional deceit. It was something that happened, and was to have been forgotten. Also, the character of Kim had been based on Irna herself. Kim was a very unusual character for As the World Turns and soap operas in general. Irna envisioned Kim as woman apart from community and family. Kim did not rely upon anyone, and she did not did not require a man to keep her fulfilled and happy. She was very Garboesque. Irna saw Kim as a woman for whom normal moral codes did not apply because Kim was, in a sense, above morality. Had Irna continued as headwriter, Kim would have born the child alone and continued with a solitary existence.

Unfortunately, the viewers saw Kim differently. World Turns had always been a moral soap, perhaps more moral than any other serial. The audience did not see any character as being above the standard formula. Irna had inadvertently violated her own code. This is why she was fired, and the Soderbergs had to work feverishly to undo the damage. The only solution was to morph Kim into the antithesis of Irna's desire. Kim became very much a typical soap heroine. She and Bob had to "pay" for their mistake, first with Bob being run over by a car and nearly killed while saving a pregnant Jennifer. Later, Bob suffered more as Jennifer came down with a terminal illness and saw it go into remission, only to die later in an unexpected car crash on Nancy's birthday. Kim was forced to marry John Dixon, anathema to Irna, and then had to endure being raped and impregnated by John. It literally took years to sort out the damage and restore Bob and Kim to loftier heights.

[DRW50]

It's interesting about Irna's view of Kim, as Kathryn Hays was very private and this fascinated the soap press.

Do you remember what Irna mentions about Natalie and Tom wanting to move to a farm and Natalie making their own food and all the rest? I wonder how far that story went. It was very of its time - shows like The Good Life made this a phenomenon in the UK.

[soapfan770]

What was audience's reactions to Kim's marriage to John and all the years of torture she went through? She also fell in love with Dan Stewart, producing a memorable couple there. What were reactions to Bob and Kim being reunited?

John was a heinous villain wasn't he? Didn't he fake paralysis or illness just to keep Kim around? I've read about Kim's amnesia storyline, I think as a viewer at that I would have been very frustrated by that point. Actually given the ratings started falling during that time to other soaps maybe some of them were!

Edited August 15, 2011 by soapfan770

[DRW50]

Another March 1986 episode is up! This has all kinds of good stuff, including Lucinda and Barbara setting up Shannon's arrest with photographers there, leading to a brawl that actually manages to be pretty funny (the best part is the WTF moment of Lucinda throwing a glass), some brief but delicious Lucinda/Lisa sparring, an unfortunate actor in the role of Ambrose (glad they recast), Meg working her way towards Dusty in some fairly risque moments, and a chilling scene where Frannie mistakes Jay for Douglas. This also has the moment where Andy learns that Kim is pregnant.

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[Mitch]

I always thought that Marland should have made Sabrina an all out slattern drunk bitch...kind of like Moniz Dinah on GL...the atithesis of everything the Hughes stood for. I think both the Hughes and the Bauers on GL suffered when Marland was not writing them as there was no internal conflict for them. When Irna was writing it was Lisa, which actually was pretty brilliant. Lisa was a family member and mother of a Hughes so Nancy went back and forth from keeping her in line (right up to the end..I love the line, "Lisa dear you are NOT helping!") to protecting her. The Bauers were always more edgier then the Hughes as Bert started out as a money grubbing nagging housewife, Ed an alcholic, Bill an alcholic who had affairs etc. During the later years they needed some internal conflict (which I though a son that Ed had with Rita would fit the bill.) Otherwise both families were considered "boring," by less imaginative PTB.

Would love to see Bob and Kim having coffee in the morning and Sabrina stumbling in the back door. "Ello loves, could use a spot of coffee after the rogering I got from young Dusty Donavon. Dont mind if I smoke do you???"

Edited August 15, 2011 by Mitch

[DRW50]

I always thought they should have had Nancy start to go back to being more stern and cold, in contrast to Kim. When Nancy first came back they had her as the judgmental mother in law type (like her unhappiness with Bob moving into Kim's place), but that was dropped.

[Mitch]

That was actually more like Irna's Nancy Hughes. A bit cold, with tougher standards. Marland turned her into a softer grandmother. But remember, Marland's Kim, while certainly warm and loving, was not one to mess with and could kick ass with the best of them, so it kind of makes sense that Nancy would mellow as the years went by and then Kim took over as matriarch. Always wanted Nancy to at least give a nod to her past and council either Kim or Lucinda in the error of over meddling in your kids lives.

Funny that when Wagner came back to the show, Lemay was writing or at least consulting for the show. He always considered Nancy Hughes to be the prototypical Irna matriach...judgmental and contolling. He hated Mary Matthews because of that, and killed her off and created Liz Matthews to be his take on the meddling matriach, instead of everyone viewing her with respect, they were annoyed with "Aunt Liz." So he actually had Nancy act more like Irna's Nancy.

[DRW50]

I wonder what ideas Lemay would have had for ATWT. All I knew was his complaining about 3 characters having their own jets.

Do you remember Sabrina coming back in 1993?

[Mitch]

I stopped watching ATWT at that time, but do remember her occasional appearance. ATWT had gotten so boring and I thought unweildy at that point. Marland broke what he fixed when he first came on, trimming the show down to be about the Hughes family at the center, and everyone swirls around them, with the Snyders as their rural counterparts. All of a sudden these extraneous characters are running around, like Aunt Mary and her stupid coffee shop!

[DRW50]

Apparently this was in September 1993, which was around the time Marland's material would have finished playing out. I had no idea Sabrina was back again at this point - she was in Montega still and she and Duncan were fighting Hans. I just wonder if this was that dull Claire Beckman again.