Billy spent most of his time off canvus and in boarding school. I hate when soaps do this with characters (Nick, Victoria) and then expect viewers to believe that there has been a loving parent/child relationship. Billy ended up living with John in his teens but I've always viewed Jack as his father figure. I don't see the NYE episode as Billy spitting venom at John. The writings are using John's 'ghost' to represent Billy's conscience, the higher self the character could be. The message is that Billy could be a better man. Billy has a sort of internal rebellion going on, a fight between who he should be and who he wants to be (higher and base nature). Also, just because a child fights against a parent doesn't imply a lack of love. Are you implying that Billy is disrespectful or fails to honor his father? I watched that episode and got the feeling that Billy fought so hard because he knew John was correct. Also, I loved how John did not get angry. He just smiled and loved his son as Billy trashed around. Parents and kids have fights--I've called my parents far worse than anything Billy said--but that does not suggest a lack of love. There have also been many scenes in which Billy has spoken fondly about 'dad' during interactions with his siblings. No, Billy doesn't always 'honor thy mother and father' but he in now way hates John.

I felt the NYC episode was rather well-written. It was based on 'honor thy mother and father that thy days shall be long,' and the writing demonstrated the wisdom of such an injunction. Basically, you John is showing Billy that his behavior--his failure to be a good man--will lead to death. John was asserting that the best form of 'honor' is self-respect and good living. That 'honoring his father' meant utilizing the good life lessons John set by example. Billy acted like a character out of the Exorcist because change, self-respect and human decency is hard. Victoria, a woman who Billy had recently harmed, finding him and acting with kindness was intended to demonstrate that Billy can be forgiven and have a good future. I feel as if this episode might have come off better as a short story. I did not think the direction was very good and, therefore, possibly the moral of the story was not overly clear. This is what happens when soaps try at getting 'deep'. Y&R can and does put out some ver good stand alone episodes and is good at working with themes. The current 'Father Knows Best' motif is cleaver when you toss Victor into the mix. This is probably another Maria effort to be 'ironic' but they have done a great job at playing with cliche without being chiche. Taking on the idealized 1950's notion of family like this is actually pretty daring because all soaps more or less uphold family as the highest value. I'm sure John will show up again, how could TPTB resist.

Translation: "I have no investment in this show beyond writers and/or characters I like so existing Y&R history, characters & longterm Y&R fans are irrelevant to me"

Billy spent most of his time off canvus and in boarding school. I hate when soaps do this with characters (Nick, Victoria) and then expect viewers to believe that there has been a loving parent/child relationship.

Billy was with John for most of his early years. Unlike Victoria and Nick, John never let Jill be the primary parent or moved out of their home. John and Billy even moved to New York together with Traci. I think Billy only spent a few years in boarding school.

Basically, you John is showing Billy that his behavior--his failure to be a good man--will lead to death.

Yet Billy continued that behavior - heavy drinking, selfish behavior - for months afterwards and the show went back to acting like this was hot stuff and is a way to find happiness. That's how he got together with Victoria.

Taking on the idealized 1950's notion of family like this is actually pretty daring because all soaps more or less uphold family as the highest value.

I would agree if I thought they were actually taking this on, but if anything Y&R is a very rigid enforcement of the 50s. Abuse = love. Women remember their place, which is in the home. Older women are either doting grannies or pathetic wretches. Men drink and drink and this shows what tough guys they are -- there's no such thing as a male alcoholic. Blacks know their place, which is to be segregated.

Edited October 6, 201015 yr by CarlD2

Translation: "I have no investment in this show beyond writers and/or characters I like so existing Y&R history, characters & longterm Y&R fans are irrelevant to me"

Not at all but all writers are artists, not hired hands who's sole task is giving fans exactly what they want. When a writer does well, he/she is rewarded with good ratings. When the writer fails, ratings crash and the person gets fired. Feel like all of us as far to hard on writers. Maybe it would be better for them to just eliminate long term characters and work with new creations as not to offend history. I doubt this would make fans happy, either. Maybe a show should just be cancelled when the original writer dies. Unless Bill Bell rises from the dead, fans will get pissed. Actually, when he was alive and writing a lot of fans were still pissed.

Billy was with John for most of his early years. He only spent a few years in boarding school.

+1.

Yet Billy continued that behavior - heavy drinking, selfish behavior - for months afterwards and the show went back to acting like this was hot stuff and is a way to find happiness. That's how he got together with Victoria.

And for all his speeches about being a good father after the crash he spends no time with Cordelia.

I would agree if I thought they were actually taking this on, but if anything Y&R is a very rigid enforcement of the 50s. Abuse = love. Women remember their place, which is in the home. Older women are either doting grannies or pathetic wretches. Men drink and drink and this shows what tough guys they are -- there's no such thing as a male alcoholic. Blacks know their place, which is to be segregated.

Don't forget Latinos loyally clean houses & homosexuals are manipulative sociopaths.

Not at all but all writers are artists, not hired hands who's sole task is giving fans exactly what they want.

No.

You're totally disregarding established Y&R history cause it doesn't suit your agendas.

Maybe it would be better for them to just eliminate long term characters and work with new creations as not to offend history.

Or maybe viewers with little to no investment in Y&R should refrain from trying to force Daytime cliches on Y&R in an attempt to make their chosen writer/actor/character fit.

Unless Bill Bell rises from the dead, fans will get pissed. Actually, when he was alive and writing a lot of fans were still pissed.

...Really?

Billy was with John for most of his early years. Unlike Victoria and Nick, John never let Jill be the primary parent or moved out of their home. John and Billy even moved to New York together with Traci. I think Billy only spent a few years in boarding school.

Yet Billy continued that behavior - heavy drinking, selfish behavior - for months afterwards and the show went back to acting like this was hot stuff and is a way to find happiness. That's how he got together with Victoria.

I would agree if I thought they were actually taking this on, but if anything Y&R is a very rigid enforcement of the 50s. Abuse = love. Women remember their place, which is in the home. Older women are either doting grannies or pathetic wretches. Men drink and drink and this shows what tough guys they are -- there's no such thing as a male alcoholic. Blacks know their place, which is to be segregated.

Do you look at soaps as a social educational project? That the show needs to 'reform' Billy in order to set some sort of example? After the NYE episode, Billy began slowing moving closer to Victoria. Yes, he continues to drink but now sees his daughter far more often. I don't think the show needs to resolve the issue of Billy's drinking unless the writers want to use it as a PSA. He is a funtional drunk, there are many in society, and I don't think a failue to 'fix' Billy leaves some whole in the canvus. In real life, most people never get 'fixed' and see no reason for a soap to be any different. I feel as if you find Bill's drinking really dangerous story. It isn't as if he is some raging wife beating bed wetting drunk. Certainly Victoria would be unable to handle that type of situation. Cloe wouldn't let the baby around Billy if he were that much of a mess. Billy is an overgrown frat boy, yes, but not a menace to society. He is a bitch but not an evil character. Billy is the stereotypical selfish guy character who fans always pity yet lovingly want to fix. That is the charm of the character and, clearly, the writers have been effective or we wouldn't be talking about him.

Billy is an overgrown frat boy

Something he never was previously.

Do you look at soaps as a social educational project? That the show needs to 'reform' Billy in order to set some sort of example?

The show needs to "reform" Billy because there is absolutely zero story available for him in his current state. Why do you think they have thrown so much at him? None of it ever lasts. There's a reason for that. He's a paper-thin joke of a character who has no history and no motivation. Who people talk about matters very little. Last year people were talking about a stuffed cat and Patty Williams -- where are they now?

Cloe wouldn't let the baby around Billy if he were that much of a mess.

Chloe is as empty a character as Billy is. Not to mention that last Christmas, she and the rest of the family let a drunken Billy all but throw the baby around like a toy.

No.

You're totally disregarding established Y&R history cause it doesn't suit your agendas.

Or maybe viewers with little to no investment in Y&R should refrain from trying to force Daytime cliches on Y&R in an attempt to make their chosen writer/actor/character fit.

...Really?

Please, Bill Bell disregarding history whenever it suited his needs. Jill radically shifted wth each recast. Paul, basically a saint, raped Cricket. Please, no son of Mary Williams would rape. All soap writers shift histories and transform characters. Also, I don't have an agenda. Am just pointing out that both writer and fan perspective is relative. I'd be singing the praises of LML if I had an agenda

Edited October 6, 201015 yr by Saving ATWT

The show needs to "reform" Billy because there is absolutely zero story available for him in his current state. Why do you think they have thrown so much at him? None of it ever lasts. There's a reason for that. He's a paper-thin joke of a character who has no history and no motivation. Who people talk about matters very little. Last year people were talking about a stuffed cat and Patty Williams -- where are they now?

Chloe is as empty a character as Billy is. Not to mention that last Christmas, she and the rest of the family let a drunken Billy all but throw the baby around like a toy.

I don't see Billy or Cloe as empty; however, even if they are, soaps mirror real life and there are plenty of empty characters on this planet. Billy is loaded with potenial so a large part of his story becomes the question of whether he will ever use that potenial for good. Also, I'm buying into the story of him actually loving Victoria. A character capable of attachment is never empty. He is a clown but it isn't correct to totally dismiss a character just because you don't like his type.

Cloe was off to a strong start of the show but, as of late, does just sort of stand there. The Cloe being ashamed of her past story was great. She came off as scared and vulnerable yet determined and tough. Also, she has learned how to love as opposed to idol worship and social climb

Something he never was previously.

Please, he was a kid, thus, unable to be an overgrown anything. He was like 18 when he almost married his 'cousin' and has since become an adult.

Also, a writer should stay loyal to a show's history but there is also a question as to how one views and interpretes history. Maybe the writer feels John should have spent more time raising Bully and less time marrying pathetic and broken women? I mean, John would still be alive and able to help Billy had he not wasted his life chasing Gloria. History has a lot to do with viewpoint and is always changing. Today, we teach kids that Ben benjamin Banneker designed Washington, DC but a lot of people would agrue that point.

Jill radically shifted wth each recast.

Outside of Brenda's 1st & 2nd run no she didn't.

Paul, basically a saint, raped Cricket.

Not written by Bill Bell.

All soap writers shift histories and transform characters.

On OTHER shows.

Also, I don't have an agenda.

Yes you do.

You like Hogan's writing so you'll defend it no matter how OOC characters act or how much Y&R destroyed.

Am just pointing out that both writer and fan perspective is relative.

No.

You're not.

Again you disregard established characters & Y&R history cause it doesn't suit your agendas.

but there is also a question as to how one views and interpretes history.

Again established Y&R history & characters don't matter.

It's all about agenda driven fanfic.

Edited October 6, 201015 yr by DeeeDee

Please, he was a kid, thus, unable to be an overgrown anything. He was like 18 when he almost married his 'cousin' and has since become an adult.

Yes but they are not saying he changed. They are saying this is what Billy has always been.

Maybe the writer feels John should have spent more time raising Bully and less time marrying pathetic and broken women?

John didn't get involved with any women, not seriously, between the last breakup with Jill, when Billy was a toddler, and several years after an adult Billy had left town.

I guess the problem for me is that YOU are explaining this, and I can respect that, but the show is not. That's the thing with Sheffer writing. He just makes people into these unrecognizable things because he wants to, and for no other reason. He did this with Craig on ATWT. I remember people saying, "This is the real Craig, this is how he would be." No it wasn't. And I noticed less and less people saying that when "the real Craig" got to the point where he was setting up his ex-wife's fiance as a stalker and causing him to be killed.

Sheffer has some sort of fantasy male figures and he will always push them front and center on any show he writes. These men are sociopaths with perma-smirks who have no relationship with anything but a bottle.

If people find that entertaining, then that's up to them. I don't. I also think that it has rotted away at every single show he has gone near.

Edited October 6, 201015 yr by CarlD2

Yes but they are not saying he changed. They are saying this is what Billy has always been.

John didn't get involved with any women, not seriously, between the last breakup with Jill, when Billy was a toddler, and several years after an adult Billy had left town.

I guess the problem for me is that YOU are explaining this, and I can respect that, but the show is not. That's the thing with Sheffer writing. He just makes people into these unrecognizable things because he wants to, and for no other reason. He did this with Craig on ATWT. I remember people saying, "This is the real Craig, this is how he would be." No it wasn't. And I noticed less and less people saying that when "the real Craig" got to the point where he was setting up his ex-wife's fiance as a stalker and causing him to be killed.

Sheffer has some sort of fantasy male figures and he will always push them front and center on any show he writes. These men are sociopaths with perma-smirks who have no relationship with anything but a bottle.

If people find that entertaining, then that's up to them. I don't. I also think that it has rotted away at every single show he has gone near.

+1.