But on daytime, do you really think these factors can matter?

Look at DOOL. They are the "miracle". Sure enough, they won back hundreds of thousands of viewers. So I think that credits the kind of phenomenon you talk about.

But it is ONLY hundreds of thousands. Over past decades, they have lost millions, and those folks are never coming back.

So this is my point. If Bill Bell were to "save" DOOL today, he might gain a half-million viewers. But the numbers would keep falling and falling from there, because the bottom is dropping out of commercial TV and out of daytime.

I don't doubt at all that good writing and promotion can lead to gains of several hundred thousand viewers, and those viewers can stick around. But it is ultimately meaningless because the bigger "meta" trend is the steady-state decline of the genre. A show could change its rank order from last to first (and that would be remarkable), but it doesn't mean that the broader enterprise isn't dying off.

I think those factors matter a lot. One of the reasons daytime has lost so many viewers is because of poor storytelling. They essentially chased viewers away and gave them reason to not want to follow a story.

DAYS had shockingly bad writing for many years, and during Reilly's second tenure, and the awful run by Hogan Sheffer, viewers were basically told to not bother to invest in a story, because it would be dragged out with no real resolution, or would be rushed through, or forgotten. The ratings have gone up at a time when the show still isn't wonderful but generally seems to have more of a long term story plan.

We could say it doesn't matter what a show does, because TV is dying, daytime is doomed, broadcast is bust, it's all pointless, but then, why are these people even being paid? Why not just give them jellybeans and bus fare? Should we justify their poor methods by assuming nothing matters and that some eons-old trend has boxed them in? I'm sure Bill Bell could have said the same about DAYS. NBC had had only one successful soap at that time (The Doctors), after 15 years of flops. Yet Bell bucked the trend.

As long as they are being paid and as long as broadcast or daytime are still around, I believe that there is still a chance for some increase, and while the increase will not be what soaps once were, or even close, it's still there.

I really do believe that a soap can at least turn themselves around to a degree if they make the effort.

So true!! And where did those viewers come from..from other soaps. They have nothing compelling to offer a new viewer to a soap to watch and slowly or sometimes quickly losing their long time audience in the process. They cannot sustain themselves this way and I don't think the standard viewer at home who doesn't frequent a message board analyze this stuff. Viewers nowadays are very fickle as they have so many other things to choose from. The rating fluctuate way too much and more often than not on the downside.

Viewers have always had many other things to choose from. I don't believe they are that much more fickle now than they were 10 years ago, or even 20. If anyone is fickle it's executives and producers.

I don't know how many of the viewers are from other soaps. Some may be from the Biggest Loser.

All you need to "compel" a new viewer is a strong character, a strong story, a strong actor. Daytime getting away from that is what drove viewers away in the first place.

Edited January 24, 201015 yr by CarlD2

Those demos are so close with all the shows aside from Y&R. I wonder if CBS will reconsider cancelling ATWT or may it actually have a chance elsewhere.

Does anyone know approximately how much ATWT is making for CBS compared to Y&R and B&B? And if NBC and Days could not come to terms for renewal, with CBS cancelling ATWT would they actually consider replacing one soap with another?

And I really wish I believed quality had a thing to do with ratings. It's 90 percent promotion and I'm sure that's what led to AMC's recent ratings surge.

I wish CBS would reconsider but I don't see them doing it. I don't know what other network might pick up ATWT. P&G is giving its same song and tune that it's shopping the soap but I doubt it. I love how fans have been sending nuts(Nuts for cancelling ATWT), bars of soaps(which got the FBI involved....lol) and I forgot what other things they have been sending to CBS in the anger towards the cancellation.

I saw AMC during the whole celebration and didnt recognize anyone on the show. I mean the shows that followed the anniversary. The only recognizable character was La Lucci...everyone else I had no idea who they were. Add that the stories suck will you have dead last in demos.

I wish CBS would reconsider but I don't see them doing it. I don't know what other network might pick up ATWT. P&G is giving its same song and tune that it's shopping the soap but I doubt it. I love how fans have been sending nuts(Nuts for cancelling ATWT), bars of soaps(which got the FBI involved....lol) and I forgot what other things they have been sending to CBS in the anger towards the cancellation.

I saw AMC during the whole celebration and didnt recognize anyone on the show. I mean the shows that followed the anniversary. The only recognizable character was La Lucci...everyone else I had no idea who they were. Add that the stories suck will you have dead last in demos.

It will be even worse next month when they recast 7 different roles. I thought ATWT was bad but I guess i'm wrong. I know they had to recast all the kids but some might even age alot older then others.

No surprise Y&R had the biggest loss.

It will be even worse next month when they recast 7 different roles. I thought ATWT was bad but I guess i'm wrong. I know they had to recast all the kids but some might even age alot older then others.

I tried to give the show a chance. I was like 15 min into it and thought who the hell are all these people?? I didn't want to waste time figuring out who was who and changed it to Days....lol.

AMC got me all excited. It had a few good weeks. Now Im bored again and I havent watched in about a week...I was home sick this week, and I flipped back and forth from Y&R/B&B and DAYs the whole time...Just not feeling AMC this past week.

Dare I say it, I've actually been enjoying AMC a lot more as of late .

AMC got me all excited. It had a few good weeks. Now Im bored again and I havent watched in about a week...I was home sick this week, and I flipped back and forth from Y&R/B&B and DAYs the whole time...Just not feeling AMC this past week.

That's another problem with AMC it's boring as [!@#$%^&*]!

All you need to "compel" a new viewer is a strong character, a strong story, a strong actor. Daytime getting away from that is what drove viewers away in the first place.

As I said they have nothing to compel a new viewer. I will just use myself as an example here as a longtime watcher -I would never ask anyone ever again that I know who has never watched a soap to watch them now (since lately I have been reading vs. watching anyway LOL). I could explain why I wouldn't encourage anyone to watch but it is not even worth it to explain. I don't know, I guess I got so used to expecting a lot better from Y&R than most soaps that it's just really disappointing to sense the desperation in the writing now. Even production values have taken a hit and sure we know it's because of budget issues but companies have been know to actually take that in stride and make it work for them.

I expect much much better from Y&R, this is not good enough. I am not giving them a pass on anything nor will make excuses even if it is warranted. Will we get it as the year moves along, I certainly hope so but I am just not that confident at the moment. Hoping MAB & Co. can change my mind on this - I see a bit of a glimmer so I guess that's something.

Edited January 24, 201015 yr by JimTolkien

1.(1) Y&R: Monday: 3.8/5,071,000 (-359,000)

2.(2) B&B: Monday: 2.6/3,575,000 (-75,000)

3.(3) DAYS: Monday: 2.3/3,358,000 (-276,000)

4.(4) GH: Monday: 2.2/3,006,000 (-15,000)

5.(5) AMC: Monday: 2.1/2,805,000 (-63,000)

6.(6) ATWT: Monday: 1.9/2,623,000 (-180,000)

7.(7) OLTL: Monday: 2.0/2,602,000 (-64,000)

1.(1) Y&R: Tuesday: 3.7/5,171,000 (+100,000)

2.(2) B&B: Tuesday: 2.4/3,402,000 (-173,000)

3.(3) DAYS: Tuesday: 2.3/3,159,000 (-199,000)

4.(4) GH: Tuesday: 1.9/2,660,000 (-346,000)

5.(5) AMC: Tuesday: 1.9/2,632,000 (-173,000)

6.(7) OLTL: Tuesday: 1.8/2,524,000 (-78,000)

7.(6) ATWT: Tuesday: 1.8/2,396,000 (-227,000)

1.(1) Y&R: Wednesday: 3.5/4,853,000 (-318,000)

2.(2) B&B: Wednesday: 2.5/3,414,000 (+12,000)

3.(3) DAYS: Wednesday: 2.1/3,081,000 (-78,000)

4.(4) GH: Wednesday: 1.9/2,652,000 (-8,000)

5.(5) AMC: Wednesday: 2.0/2,577,000 (-55,000)

6.(7) ATWT: Wednesday: 1.9/2,568,000 (+172,000)

7.(6) OLTL: Wednesday: 1.8/2,293,000 (-231,000)

1,(1) Y&R: Thursday: 3.7/5,134,000 (+281,000)

2.(2) B&B: Thursday: 2.4/3,288,000 (-126,000)

3.(3) DAYS: Thursday: 2.2/2,989,000 (-92,000)

4.(4) GH: Thursday: 1.9/2,576,000 (-76,000)

5.(5) AMC: Thursday: 1.9/2,554,000 (-23,000)

6.(6) ATWT: Thursday: 1.9/2,537,000 (-31,000)

7.(7) OLTL: Thursday: 1.8/2,392,000 (+99,000)

1.(1) Y&R: Friday: 3.2/4,597,000 (-537,000)

2.(2) B&B: Friday: 2.5/3,510,000 (+222,000)

3.(3) DAYS: Friday: 2.2/2,930,000 (-59,000)

4.(6) ATWT: Friday: 1.9/2,621,000 (+84,000)

5.(5) AMC: Friday: 2.0/2,566,000 (+12,000)

6.(4) GH: Friday: 1.8/2,564,000 (-12,000)

7.(7) OLTL: Friday: 1.8/2,337,000 (-55,000)