HBO: Game of Thrones

[quartermainefan]

Epic episode.   My favorite shot was Jon standing there as all the cavalry are racing to toward him and we see things from his point of view.   This was the best battle episode yet I think, and it had a very Two Towers feel to it in parts.   The shot of Sansa and Littlefinger at the end was totally Gandalf and Eomer, with Jon being Aragorn.   A very satisfying end to Bolton--finally--and hopefully the sadistic portion of our program is finally at an end.  Also happy Littlefinger didn't betray Sansa,  I am sure he will have an angle, perhaps being her husband, but for the moment he saved the day.   Poor Rickon, we barely knew him and I wish the show explained why that house hosting him and Osha sold him out.   All those people following the Boltons have a lot of explaining to do considering their evil reign.   Jon should put them all to death--and the dogs too. 

 

The dragon stuff was cool also.   Theon and his sister arriving like magic was a little abrupt and plotty but at least they got through that quickly.  

[Juliajms]

I think the reason Rickon was given up was Jon letting the Wildings stay south of the wall. That was seen as a betrayal. I also hoped that at least one house would betray Ramsey mid battle. I think part of the reason that didn't happen was that any house betraying Ramsey would have gone for him. TPTB wanted to let Jon and Sansa kill him.

 

I do wonder why Jon didn't ask The Red Woman to bring Rickon back, but maybe he thinks it's a fate worse than death.

 

It worried me a little that Jon's army is mostly dead and Little Finger's is not. Hopefully, he won't screw Sansa over.

[Vee]

I'm only about 30 minutes in but can Daenerys finally dump Daario and get with Yara? I'm so glad they've made the Greyjoy siblings more relevant, and in such an unexpected plotline. Gemma Whelan is a delight.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Vee

[Vee]

That was deeply satisfying.

 

That is all.

 

Oh, and much more Yara and Daenerys, please. Putting these too-often-dismissed siblings with her was a master stroke. This has been a very, very strong season, possibly the strongest since Season 3 IMO (though Season 4 was pretty good and Season 5 had a lot of great stuff amidst the treading water).

 

Littlefinger is always out for Littlefinger. He told Cersei he will wait the victor out then take the North for himself and that's exactly what he intends to do before coming for King's Landing itself. Sansa did what she had to to take back the North but she can never take her eye off him - if I was her I'd execute him, now, and blame it on the Boltons.

 

The Northern houses will fall in line but I agree that the Umbers at the very least should have their reigning ranks dismantled and executed for what they did to Rickon and Osha.

 

As for Davos and Melisandre, I knew the moment they both turned up at Castle Black last season that he would find out what she did to Shireen. Other fans thought it would be forgotten but I knew it wouldn't be. There will be no stopping him from killing her unless she kills him first, or they do each other, which is entirely possible.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Vee

[Vee]

Emilia Clarke and Gemma Whelan on the latest GOT supercouple:

 

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And other BTS stuff:

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Vee

[YRBB]

Sophie Turner on the Ramsay showdown.

[Toups]

What an epic battle!  There were so many cool shots.  My favourite shot was also Jon facing the calvary.  I also liked the Bolton shield wall, Jon's POV of him getting trampled on, Jon rising above the bodies grasping for air.   Ramsey's death was very satisfying - eaten by his own dogs.  Perfect. 

 

These battle scenes that GOT does is always on a movie level.  It's amazing that they're able to do this for a TV show. 

[quartermainefan]

I would have to say the shot of the cavalry racing toward Jon is the best shot or image the show has ever done.   That, the wall of shields, the pile of dead bodies...the show always gives its best stuff to Jon.   Last year the battle up north was another highlight. 

[DRW50]

I watched most of the episode last night. The visuals were stunning, but there was no emotional core. I get the dramatic choice of having no emotion behind the Starks taking back their family home, as this reminds us that war is horrible and no one truly "wins" in GoT, and so on. I also get that Sansa and Jon were never close and likely never will be, so there is not going to be any hugging and happiness. Unfortunately, if you aren't going to have any emotional weight (they didn't even bother to add emotional weight to Rickon's death - he was just a plot device to the end), then characterization issues are more difficult to hide.

 

The whole concept of Sansa and Littlefinger and their clever scheming ways serving as the contrast to Jon's emotional instability and naivete was the biggest miss in all of this, because Sansa and Littlefinger haven't shown enough intelligence to warrant that particular tag. Their plot to make Sansa "Queen of the North" led Sansa to be raped and, if not for the show giving Ramsay a personality transplant, likely would have led her to be tortured and murdered. And now she keeps secrets from Jon so we can have a "surprise" scene (not so surprising when it's been done 3-4 times over the course of the show) of Littlefinger riding to the rescue, even though it led to the deaths of thousands and could have easily led to her death as well. Of course we had a big Robot Maria-style smirk when Sansa watched Ramsay die so that we could get one last reminder that she is now hardened and "strong," which is just the final capper in the Sansa-empowered-through-rape saga that wasn't worth it in any way, shape or form.

 

Of anything I was probably most interested in Yara and Theon going to Mereen, but most of that was taken away by the extended wah-wah scene from Tyrion, who, in spite of hurling insults and finding weak spots of other people, still can't get over being called an imp. The show's belief that he is in any way a decent person or anything but a self-righteous, deluded, weak man (like the sister he hates, like the brother he...whatever their relationship is at this point), has rendered this character a complete drag on any scene he appears in. 

[Vee]

I thought it was an incredibly emotional episode, and it's followed a strong narrative for Sansa and Jon all season since she was rescued by Brienne, said goodbye to Theon (who IIRC embraced as friends), then reunited with Jon. I don't think there was anything cold or bloodless about it. I think Sansa's dressing-down of Baelish a few episodes back also drives that home. This whole season has been about emotional climaxes and catharses for the heroic characters, starting with the premiere. That's another reason they've taken so many character beats with Jon and Sansa just talking together in episode after episode.

 

Sansa kept the secret from Jon because she knew she couldn't trust Littlefinger, didn't know if he'd come and because, first and foremost (even if she had known for sure) if they'd waited for the Vale, Ramsay would've sensed trouble and holed up in Winterfell for an endless siege like Riverrun. The only way to get him was to get him out on the battlefield and overconfident. Jon is a strong and noble commander but he didn't know how to deal with Ramsay's madness, and he would've died there if she hadn't called in the Vale, but at the same time they would've never stopped the Boltons if Jon and their force hadn't been out there almost dying in the field.

 

It was a sacrifice and not a pretty one, but it was necessary to get Ramsay out of Winterfell and take him down. That's war.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Vee

[Juliajms]

Also, I don't think we were supposed to find Little Fingers arrival surprising. First we saw Sansa write to him for help. Second, if anyone thought that Ramsey was going to win that battle, they haven't been paying attention. How else could Jon win if Little Finger didn't show up?

 

On another board I saw people theorizing that Jon was actively protected by magic in this episode and I think that's right.  The conversation between Jon and Red Woman set that up. I sort of rolled my eyes when none of the arrows hit him. The Lord of Light's protection at least explains that.

 

I don't think there would have been happiness and hugging in that episode if Ned Stark himself walked out of the crypt.  Rickon is dead and Jon just went through living hell and watched a lot of people he cared about die. His army was wiped out and there is another army in town. I'm not so sure Little Finger wasn't taking a lesson from the Late Lord Frey on that one. I bet Sansa and Jon aren't either. Plus who knows who they can trust in the North after this other than Little Lady Mormont.

[DRW50]

I think they wanted viewers to doubt whether he'd actually arrive or not. Unfortunately in doing so they had to make both Sansa and Jon look stupid and just further reinforced the lack of any real relationship between them. Again it's not out of character - they were never close - but it just makes their interaction, and the idea of any Stark reunion, more hollow to me.

 

I don't think there would have been any happiness, no, but I think D&D's idea to make it as miserable as possible sort of rendered the whole thing cliche, outside of the nice visuals. I get the idea of an anti-reunion, that when the remaining Starks do come together, they will all be so miserable and broken viewers won't ever be able to feel happiness, but the overall characterization and storytelling for the Starks, and the show as a whole, are too clumsy to back up what amounts to tedious nihilism. 

[Vee]

Yeah, they gave Littlefinger multiple(?) scenes this season talking about going to the North to aid the victor in the battle for Winterfell. He literally rode off for the North a few weeks ago. He told Cersei his exact plan last season. He offered his services to Sansa a couple weeks ago, then she wrote him. So yeah, it was very explicitly set up.

 

Sansa and Jon hugged and had their time together to relax when they reunited. The end of that battle wasn't really about anything other than exhaustion and some measure of resolution, which they got given what they'd lost. I thought the quiet moment with the unfurling of the Stark banner again (while the Flayed Man falls into the mud) was really understated and beautiful. They could've made even more music swell over that like they'd had all episode, but instead they played it down because the image was enough.

 

 

Well, I already talked about why Sansa didn't tell Jon. But what they've outlined all season, since their reunion and their first night back together, is that Jon and Sansa do have a loving relationship but that they're also very different people. They've both seen different things as they've come into adulthood and they react to them differently, and Sansa plays things her way while Jon plays them his, and that leads to friction. That's earned character conflict and inherent drama - we see it on soap operas all the time. They're not at each other's throats but they're not in total unison. That's the way a lot of people are, it just so happens that their circumstances could be life and death.

 

I don't know how much you've been watching or when, but I think this season in particular is the polar opposite of nihilism. I don't watch nihilism TV and I never have. This is the most hopeful season GOT's ever had. When you talk about an anti-reunion and no emotion, I have to feel like you're either not watching it or just seeing what you want to. Which is your prerogative, but I don't think it's entirely fair to what the show is putting out onscreen. I could understand a great amount of the heavy criticisms online of the flawed Season 5 (Dorne!!!) even when I didn't agree with all of them, or even parts of Season 4 which had issues here and there, but the show has changed dramatically after it came off the leash of the existing books.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Vee

[DRW50]

If we weren't supposed to be surprised (somewhat, anyway), I'm not sure why they made sure Jon had no idea. I guess it could be to build up trust issues, but that's mostly redundant as they have no trust in the first place. Oh well.

 

Anyway, I'm glad you both enjoyed the episode. 

[Juliajms]

Little Finger showing up was a lot like Jon's resurrection. How anyone could be surprised be either is far beyond me. I agree that the matter of fact way the Stark banner replaced Bolton was just right.

 

One thing I found interesting is that Jon wasn't made to seem like an infallible military commander in this episode. Actually, that's an argument against the Starks feeling nihilistic. If Jon didn't think anything mattered he wouldn't have ridden out to try to save his little brother against all possible odds. It was a terrible mistake that arguably got a lot of people killed, but he acted on pure emotion.