HBO: Game of Thrones

[quartermainefan]

 

I don't remember that at all.   Jon left the Starks in the second or third episode (chasing after his missing uncle..who is still missing?).    You have me thinking about the season one cast and how much now the show has changed. 

[Juliajms]

I don't remember it either. Here is the quote. The link I'm posting continues some theories, but not real spoilers.

http://www.tvguide.com/news/game-of-thrones-theory-shaggydog-grand-northern-conspiracy/

[Juliajms]

A lot of my hopes where dashed this episode. That was a great moment between Jon and Sansa though. I'll say more later.

[YRBB]

I was not expecting to start crying not even 6 minutes into the episode but, by Gods, it happened, it finally happened -- Starks were reunited!!! And I was so sure they'd miss each other by one scene or something. Their hug and subsequent talk were absolutely perfect. From "say you forgive me!" to the drinking of the ale to almost arguing afterwards. It was just everything.

 

Do I have the right words for Tormund and Brienne liking each other? No, no I don't. Just... yes. Yes. YES.

 

Ramsay's letter to Jon was such a great way to mobilize Jon and convince him to fight. Through it all, we see such a grown-up, smart, mature Sansa. She really is taking after Catelyn and she has given Jon the strength he needed. 

 

Tyrion's parlay with the slavers was interesting. Not my favorite stuff but I can never complain when Missandei and Greyworm get a lot of material.

 

Kings Landing has also been excellent. The only thing I detest is the writing for Loras ... I've tried to accept it but how I hate that the one gay man on the show is the only one who's not brave, always cries, always wants to give up, always loses. I mean, I get it that he's been beaten down, and there's nuances and all of that, but still... Other than that, the High Sparrow working on Margaery was great (wonderfully acted by the HS) and I thought Margaery was really falling for it. And the way they got Cersei to get Tommen on her side and then she and Jaime started plotting an assassination. This is going to be SO good. Also, LOL at Pycell's fake slow walking and Cersei rolling her eyes.

 

Yara and Theon was excellent. Just wonderfully written and acted. The Iron Islands are going to be such a highlight.

 

I love how much this season has been defying expectations. Not only is the pace 100% faster, but what happened, first with Arya's storyline, and now with both Ramsay and Dany really showed we do not always know where this is going, even if we think we do. It was so sad to see Osha go. She really did try. But there was no way this was going to end well for her. As for Dany, so happy we see what her kidnapping leads to: Her having an even bigger army than ever before! They have proven, once and for all, in my eyes, that they know what they're doing. I'm here for it. 

[YRBB]

Also, while I don't normally watch the preview, I did this week and was not disappointed. Next episode looks even crazier and better.

[Juliajms]

I don't think I've ever felt like I know where this show is going, except in the case of Jon being brought back. I hoped that the north was already with Jon, but the second I saw Osha brought to Ramsey I knew she was dead. My only surprise there was that he gave her a quick clean death.

 

As far as the pace goes, I feel it is way too fast and that the story has become way too big for 10 hours seasons. We jump from event to event with so little time for character moments.  It's not something I'm going to dwell on though because I knew it was inevitable from the start.

 

I agree it's a shame that Loras has been so broken, but he's not really the only gay man (Red Viper) on the show and he's not the only one who isn't brave. Hell, I thought Jon Snow was acting pretty weak this episode. I felt like giving him a good slap. If you think about it the list of cowards on this show is a mile long. Not that I count Jon in that, but he could have been a little more ready to go take Ramsey down.

 

At least Loras has good reason to give up. I'm glad we didn't have to see it (and I can only imagine the backlash if we had), but we can imagine the psychological and physical torture these religious nuts put him through.

[DRW50]

 

The Red Viper was pansexual, not gay, although he was mostly written as straight and then just leering and winking about sex with men. 

 

There are plenty of characters on the show who aren't brave, but the show somehow always manages to go for a stereotype with Loras - weak, effeminate, incredibly stupid and constantly being the downfall of his family. Even his relationship with Renly was only brought back up as damning proof of his being gay, while it was dredged up again and again for Brienne's story. 

 

Last season when I quit watching, one of the reasons was because I had absolutely no idea if the show even felt that the Faith Militant's anti-gay views were wrong. If so, they certainly never have shown it in the writing.

Edited May 16, 2016 by DRW50

[YRBB]

Well, it doesn't happen often, but we disagree. 

 

 

A lot of people, even here, assumed that Arya would be training and blind forever and that Dany would be kidnapped forever as means to delay her storyline (i.e. for the rest of the season). Those were clearly expectations that were posted/talked about and the show proved them WAY wrong. I'm glad they did, as even I feared it could happen. But I am so glad it did not.

 

 

I agree that it could take a little time to adjust to the new pace but, again, jumping from event to event? Little time for character moments? A bit of an exaggeration. It took two whole episodes for Jon to be revived. Four episodes for Dany's big moment. Everything else has been building steadily. While they have picked up the pace sufficiently, it is done to serve as a build up to the climax of the story, and thank God we are not anywhere near anything like the pace of network TV or something!

 

 

Oberyn was bisexual (although mostly he just was shown with women) and the key word here is WAS. So Loras really is the one gay man on the show. As far as others not being brave, come on. You know I'm not talking about one of the dozens of supporting characters. I'm talking about Jaime and Jon and Tyrion and Jorrah and Daario and Greyworm and Tormund and Podrick and even broken, destroyed, mutilated Theon. And many more. And that's before we even get to the women, who in many ways have been much stronger, braver and smarter than a lot of the men. So the one gay man just happens to be a cowardly, sniveling baby? It's too obvious.

 

And, in Jon's case, how could he not act the way he did? LMAO! He's been fighting for six seasons now and all he got was a knife in the heart for it. He just wanted to be done, although clearly that's not in his future. That's excellent drama. How can you not have sympathy for that? 

 

 

Sure. As I mentioned in my own post, I certainly understand it. But it just continues the usual line of behavior for him and it rubs me the wrong way. It has for a long time now. I hope they prove us wrong about this, too. But, yes, I am glad we didn't get to see any of Loras or Margaery's torment.

Edited May 16, 2016 by YRBB

[DRW50]

Did they really bring Osha back for a few scenes just to make us awed (yet again) with what a clever dangerous sexy badass Ramsay is? 

 

Glad I didn't see it.

[Juliajms]

OK, but that's picking and choosing. There are plenty of people in the story who have acted as dishonorable cowards. At the top of the list is Tywin, Roose and Ramsey Bolton and Walder Fray.  The whole Red Wedding was an act of cowardice by every single person involved.  Ramsey tortures people who are helpless and weaker. Just because he isn't crying doesn't mean he's anything other than a cowardly little bint.  Jaime totally gave up after his hand was cut off. Sure, I don't blame him either, but he did. Loras faced The Mountain . Then he didn't run when Stannis was coming until his sister begged him. I don't think there is any reason to think he isn't going to find his feet again just like Jamie and Theon have. Of course he could also be brutally murdered.

 

Arya's story is boring me right now. She may not be blind, but she is still in training and it is a delaying tactic. I'll agree it's necessary to the story, but it's just not interesting to me.

 

And nope, I don't have a lick of sympathy for Jon right now. That letter from Ramsey should have had him doing a little more than reluctantly nodding his head.  Sansa has been brutalized by one man after the next, raped and tortured by Ramsey and she still had more fight in her.  Azore Azai reborn needs to get his ass in gear.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Juliajms

[Cheap21]

I hadnt realized till the show was over that the theme of the episode was reunions. Margaery was reunited with Loras; Dany was reunited with Joraj and Daario, Theon with his sister; but most importantly Sansa with Jon. Finally after all these years we finally got a Stark reunion. Loved it. I really hope they can save Rickon, but knowing this show they only teased it so we can have him violently murdered in front of his siblings

 

Poor Osha! She's finally back only to get killed off. Ramsey is the new Joffrey and when he gets whats coming to him, I will savor in it

Edited May 16, 2016 by Cheap21

[quartermainefan]

This episode...for years Danerys has been the most boring waste of time character on the show, and look what the show did:  after spending four years wasting time freeing slave cities we never see again...the show resets her back to season one and now she is back winning over the dothraki regurgitating her tired old desires about going west.   She is a complete waste of time and you could almost edit out her every scene from season 2 til now and you wouldn't miss a single plot point germane to the story of her going west.   Now it isn't even her who is spinning wheels in boringtown, they have poor Tyrion wasting his time dealing with this dramatic dead end. 

 

A bunch of people I have spoken to all say the same thing:  the quality has dropped this year as the show enters uncharted territory.   It's too typical, too full of tropes and so on.   If Jon Snow was killed in season three he probably would have stayed dead, I'll agree with that, and now the show has settled on the more conventional view of the dashing hero who will not be stopped until the last chapter.   Once upon a time the dashing hero was Robb, and he died.   The show, I think we can all agree, could literally drop a meteor on Castle Black at this point and Jon will emerge alive because he has to get to the big fight at the end.   I guess I can deal with the slightly more predictability of it all, but for me what has changed is the writing has become so abrupt.   Everything happens now wham bam, thank you ma'am.  "Here is Sansa" "Oh hi Brienne"  "And here is Jon!" and here is a 30 second reunion and now let's go to war!     Maybe time is running out for the series and there is a lot to cover, but it all seems so hurried now.   Theon's father is back, oh wait, he is dead!  And here is the brother we never heard of! 

 

And then at King's Landing Cersei brought up a good point to Uncle !@#$%^&*]:   they got Lancel, why hasn't he done anything about it?   The answer is of course because they wanted to get a season out the faith militant but it is just odd how in one meeting everything comes together and now the militant must be destroyed.    And maybe the speed of that decision wouldn't have been so 1-2-3 if the Sansa and Jon stuff wasn't moving even faster.   In the time Arya has been sweeping up that room Sansa managed to travel a thousand miles.

 

I am with the show til the end and love it, but I think it is starting to become more of a pageturner than a serious drama.

[DRW50]

It's less about actions than about how actions are framed. The show bent over backwards to try to paint Tywin's actions as strategy and cunning, rather than vile butchery. They downplayed the carnage and consequences to the North and they instead had him having philosophical debates with Tyrion about the matter. The show wrote Tywin based so much on Charles Dance and his charm that most of Tywin's weaknesses and cruelties were never properly shown, making his death an anticlimax.

 

Ramsay has done many terrible things, but he is always presented as a warrior badass super-strategist even amidst his horrible actions. He was also repeatedly given hot sex scenes that did absolutely nothing to move the plot along and instead just seemed designed to further remind viewers of how awesome he was. 

 

Loras, in comparison, is framed as absolutely worthless, time and time again. Rather than ever showing him as a warrior (other than one shot riding in on a horse after the battle was already over), he was shown giggling with Sansa because gee he sure loves weddings. He is then shown as ruining his family's plans for Sansa because he tells all his secrets to a whore. Amazingly, he then proceeds to get back in bed with this same whore who betrayed his family and, amazingly, it happens all over again. Even when his grandmother talks about him, he's nothing more than a cheap gay joke compared to jokes about incest. The most he manages to do when he isn't ruining his family and planning weddings is to cry and be weak. 

 

And this is the show's main gay character. They erased any other gay characters from the TV version. This is the best they can manage. It's just another reason why the show, for all the hype of how daring it is, feels very retrograde and dated in how they write many characters. Loras is someone who managed to escape from The Celluloid Closet and stumble into Westeros. 

[Juliajms]

I agree with some of what you say Carl, but not your take on Ramsey. I don't know how anyone can see him as the slightest bit sexy.  He's been framed as the Hannibal Lecter of Westeros almost from the start. At least tonight they made clear that he doesn't eat his victims.

 

I think we've talked a lot about the show being dated. I won't disagree, but the U.S. has changed a lot since the first book was written and in some ways it's just a fantasy period piece. Because of the staggering world wide popularity of the show, it's a little sadder to me that aspects of it aren't more progressive. Some of the visuals are particularly unfortunate, like Dany being lifted up by all of those former slaves. There are little things they could have done all along to make these issues less glaring, but they didn't.

 

On another front, I'd forgotten about the connection between Brianne and Ser Davos. That's an interesting little thread.

[DRW50]

I don't think people can find his actions sexy, but when he's shown naked with a woman, pleasuring her, then I think the idea is for viewers to see him in that type of light. They did seem to eventually stop this, but I never understood why they did it. Iwan Rheon is a sexy man but the character shouldn't be.

 

I do see your point. I appreciate what you're saying and thanks for replying.