It seemed as though when the new head-writers came on in 1997, once the Annie trial was over... the show quickly reunited Josh/Reva and Annie was kept almost in a hamster wheel of obsessing over Josh/Reva instead of trying to rebuild her life and get her sanity back.   The work Long did with Sonni post Josh/Reva proved that a character that wasn't well could function on the canvas in a different orbit so I never understood why the show didn't try to do that with Annie (unless the show knew by mid 1997 that Watros was going to be leaving in a matter of months).

The Vanessa stuff in early 1998 showed to me that the writers didn't really didn't know of her connections/history... or else Ross/Nola/Billy would have had scenes with Van recalling their history and urging her to fight with a jealous Matt left out.  Much had been made about Vanessa feeling insecure because of the age difference.. but I don't recall a lot of focus on Matt feeling insecure/left out/jealous over her connections with both Ross and Billy.  And having Nola there with Buzz/Jenna would have been smart and caused tension between them.

And I remember watching when Cassie first came on in mid 1997 played by Laura Wright (Sisk) and I had to admit I was intrigued to see what she would do with the role, especially after Maura West had supposedly been offered the role and turned it down.   At first, I liked Cassie when she was written as a bit rough around the edges and trying to figure out why Alan/Annie had a thing against Reva/Josh.   Cassie and Billy were tested against one another and I thought they had better chemistry than she did with Hart.

I eventually grew to dislike Cassie once she was pushed onto Hart by the writers and became Saint Reva's sister (when Roxie was a much better and closer sister to Reva back in the day).  Fans didn't like Cassie and thought she was a way for the show to erase Roxie's existence and felt Dinah was trashed/ruined to prop Cassie.

 

21 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

OMG - such a great point, I honestly didn't even think about Nola or where she was. Such a shame, but they've put Nola on an island after her obsession with Buzz. The Cooper's don't like her, J left town and she really has no one left. Buzz seemingly has his memory back (they haven't really confirmed this, it's very grey, but he's working at the diner and seems to be back with Jenna - the whole storyline has been back-burnered Jan-March). I guess the writers just didn't know how to use her during those scenes, which again is a shame.

There's a point where GL (and soaps in general) stopped caring about those little character moments that just meant so much to viewers. Nola being there would've called back to the only truly "nice" moment Van and Nola ever had on screen (well, two if you count how Nola is the one hugging Van when she's devastated by her diagnosis, but I digress.)  

Van has Bill via c-section, and then later nearly dies in Van's arms when he stops breathing because the doctors didn't catch that he had a heart murmur. (this is what made Van overanxious and led to her pill addiction, but again, I digress..) Nola visits Van in the hospital, and relates the story of Stacy's birth and how the doctors/books don't prepare you for things that happen that aren't anyone's fault. 

I'd have much rather seen Nola gushing over little Maureen and acknowledging how much Van went through than see Jenna snotting tears. 

18 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

It seemed as though when the new head-writers came on in 1997, once the Annie trial was over... the show quickly reunited Josh/Reva and Annie was kept almost in a hamster wheel of obsessing over Josh/Reva instead of trying to rebuild her life and get her sanity back.   The work Long did with Sonni post Josh/Reva proved that a character that wasn't well could function on the canvas in a different orbit so I never understood why the show didn't try to do that with Annie (unless the show knew by mid 1997 that Watros was going to be leaving in a matter of months).

The Vanessa stuff in early 1998 showed to me that the writers didn't really didn't know of her connections/history... or else Ross/Nola/Billy would have had scenes with Van recalling their history and urging her to fight with a jealous Matt left out.  Much had been made about Vanessa feeling insecure because of the age difference.. but I don't recall a lot of focus on Matt feeling insecure/left out/jealous over her connections with both Ross and Billy.  And having Nola there with Buzz/Jenna would have been smart and caused tension between them.

And I remember watching when Cassie first came on in mid 1997 played by Laura Wright (Sisk) and I had to admit I was intrigued to see what she would do with the role, especially after Maura West had supposedly been offered the role and turned it down.   At first, I liked Cassie when she was written as a bit rough around the edges and trying to figure out why Alan/Annie had a thing against Reva/Josh.   Cassie and Billy were tested against one another and I thought they had better chemistry than she did with Hart.

I eventually grew to dislike Cassie once she was pushed onto Hart by the writers and became Saint Reva's sister (when Roxie was a much better and closer sister to Reva back in the day).  Fans didn't like Cassie and thought she was a way for the show to erase Roxie's existence and felt Dinah was trashed/ruined to prop Cassie.

WHAT NOW? Maura was in the running for Cassie? OH BOY HOWDY...if Kimmy had issues with Cynthia stealing her thunder, she'd have had a meltdown with Maura acting rings around her...but I digress. Frank Grillo caught like a deer in headlights as Maura acted would've been HELLA FUNNY.  Thanking the soap gods this didn't happen and Maura went back to ATWT.

I don't recall Matt really having a point of view outside of Vanessa really either. That's why he's a one-dimensional "hero" just set up as Van's steadfast stud service. If the entire point of that romance was the Harlequin romance/wish department for women of a certain age, why not flip the entire older/younger scenario and have Matt be jealous over Ross or Billy and realize that he needs to improve himself to be worthy of her? Instead it lapsed into Van worrying over the likes of Beth Raines. (say what you will, but Beth is already bordering on mentally unstable by this time)

I didn't mind Laura Wright as much then, but now it's clear she went to the KZ school of chewing scenery.

6 minutes ago, P.J. said:

WHAT NOW? Maura was in the running for Cassie? OH BOY HOWDY...if Kimmy had issues with Cynthia stealing her thunder, she'd have had a meltdown with Maura acting rings around her...but I digress. Frank Grillo caught like a deer in headlights as Maura acted would've been HELLA FUNNY.  Thanking the soap gods this didn't happen and Maura went back to ATWT.

I don't recall Matt really having a point of view outside of Vanessa really either. That's why he's a one-dimensional "hero" just set up as Van's steadfast stud service. If the entire point of that romance was the Harlequin romance/wish department for women of a certain age, why not flip the entire older/younger scenario and have Matt be jealous over Ross or Billy and realize that he needs to improve himself to be worthy of her? Instead it lapsed into Van worrying over the likes of Beth Raines. (say what you will, but Beth is already bordering on mentally unstable by this time)

I didn't mind Laura Wright as much then, but now it's clear she went to the KZ school of chewing scenery.

Maura West!  Same reaction, wow. 

Based on a news article I just read, it sounds like Jerry had prostate cancer back in 1993, so well before this storyline. But I think you said it well - sadly, the writers/producers didn't care enough to know the backstory/history, or care to give those little character moments that mean so much to viewers. It's all about plot and moving forward in the moment, I guess. In this era with E&B, SO much is going on that I have to imagine it's hard to get certain characters together in scene when their own storylines are going a mile a minute. 

I’m up to March 06, 1998.

Baby Maureen needs a kidney transplant to survive, so Holly gets tested and is a match. She decides to be the donor, but didn’t talk to Fletcher about it first and he gets upset because he still wants to move to Canada and this would set them back. Holly/Roger connect on the decision and he’s supportive and they hug, which Fletcher sees. He later tells Holly that another reason he wants to move the family is to get Holly away from Roger, which upsets her because she sees it as manipulative. Amanda shows up and later gives Roger an ultimatum, either leave with her next week for California or stay in SF with Holly. If he stays, she leaves him and takes away all his Spaulding power and opportunities. Roger decides to go with Amanda, which Holly overhears and appears to have a sad reaction. Later, the baby is in dire need of the kidney so Holly is forced to go into surgery to start the donor process, without talking to Fletcher. They can’t reach Fletcher, but Roger shows up and is there for Holly as she’s wheeled into surgery. Meanwhile, Blake can’t reach Ross and Ben shows up, and she leans on him as she cries/worries for Holly. Blake continues to make horrible decisions here haha. The kidney transplant was successful and everyone is happy. Fletcher finally arrives and continues his push to move to Toronto. Vanessa/Matt visit Holly in the recovery room and ask her to be Maureen’s godmother, which was sweet but makes her want to be in SF even more. Fletcher questions if they’re drifting apart, while Roger tells Blake that Holly still loves him and isn’t as close to Fletcher. Later, Roger talks to a sleeping Holly and tells her he’s only with Amanda for money and power, which he likes, but that he really loves her (Holly). He says he needs her, wants her back because he doesn’t know how to deal without, and he’ll love her until the day he dies. She appears to wake up and says “I know”. He tells her to give him a reason to cancel his flight to CA and his wedding to Amanda, just say the word. She said she’s too tired to think about this right now, so he says think about it and let him know, and then leaves her room. Again, as a Holly/Roger fan, I love to hear this, but it just doesn’t have the same impact without Zaslow in the role.

Josh is working with police and divers to find Reva, but he finally hears the voicemail that Reva left him and he breaks down, which is so emotional. Later, he returns to Springfield and has a meltdown at home alone, believing that Reva is dead and he has to tell the kids. He’s drinking from the bottle and listening to Reva’s voicemail over and over, while crying. Micheal then comes by and Josh tells him everything that happened, which I find really strange because Josh barely knows this guy. I guess it’s easier to tell someone you’re not close to vs. telling loved ones, given they’ll be devastated. Ok, I see where this is going now. Michael then finds a medical card in a wallet and Josh tells him that Reva had harvested some of her eggs in case they wanted to have another baby down the line. Michael then tells Josh he can’t tell anyone about what happened to Reva  because he has a plan to potentially get Reva back, by cloning her. Josh flips out on him, telling him his sci-fi BS is ridiculous, but Michael keeps pushing his research about it. So here comes the infamous clone storyline that turns GL into DAYS territory haha. I knew it was coming in 1998, but had no idea that it was directly related to Annie’s exit (well, Watros’ exit), how interesting. No wonder Michael, his research lab and weird black cat popped up a month ago, they were setting this all up. In real life, Dolly the sheep had just happened in 1996, so I guess that might have been on their mind when coming up with this storyline. We’ll see what I think as it goes along…

Later, Michael takes Josh to his lab and introduces him to the cat and the cat’s clone LOL. He explains to Josh that the clone would start as a baby, and he’s been working on a growth stimulant to speed up the life cycle. Josh just can’t bring himself to believe a clone Reva will help, because it won’t feel like the same thing. But Shayne/Marah call him, and he just can’t bring himself to tell the kids that Reva is dead, so he reluctantly agrees to start the cloning process. I will say, Robert Newman has done a great job in all these scenes, you can really feel and believe all his emotions throughout. Michael then tells Josh that it’ll be an exact physical copy, but she won’t have Reva’s life experiences. Ok, my question - how can you guarantee this clone will love Josh, and how would she have any memories of Reva’s, like if someone were to ask questions or bring up stories, could she contribute? Michael says he’ll take care of the baby until she’s an infant, which is when Josh can then meet her and take care of her (ok LOL, this is sounding silly). But, Josh, even though he’s drinking during all of this, keeps saying he can’t have his kids go through life again without a mother, so he’s going through with it. The clone will get to Reva’s real age in a few weeks and then they’ll stop the growing agent. At this point, Alan walks in asking what they’re doing together so late at night, and drinking no less. Alan says Michael is finished and drunken Josh lunges at him and tells him Annie killed Reva, but then course corrects after Michael says no, and he says she killed Reva’s spirit. Alan then kicks them out of the lab and secretly vows to get to the bottom of what they’re up to, as he looks at the cats LOL. The next morning, Michael is packing up his stuff and Alan tries to stop him, so Michael uses a chemical to knock him out, he takes his cats and equipment and leaves. Josh, who kept having nightmares about Reva, wakes up and decides to tell Michael he can’t go through with it, but finds Alan knocked out on the floor. He wakes up Alan, they fight, and Amanda comes in to interrupt them. Josh leaves and sends Michael a voicemail telling him to stop with the cloning and he’s going to Cross Creek to tell the kids the truth.

So the legacy of the Michael character will more likely be tied to this clone storyline than Vanessa’s, and I find it odd they didn’t even have Michael be near Vanessa during her birth and coma. Did they just give up on that friendship in favor of the clone storyline?

Meanwhile, Cassie and the kids are in Cross Creek, waiting on Hart to join them. Rob shows up instead to see Tammy (and secretly seduce Cassie as part of his and Dinah’s plans). Cassie demands that he leave. He tries to leave, but his car won’t start because they’re in the middle of a snow storm and now they’re all stuck there in Cross Creek. Come to find out, Rob faked the car not being able to start, which irritates Cassie, but he tells her he wanted time to feel like he was a family and get to know Tammy better. Later, Cassie is napping by the fire as Hart’s car is pulling up, so Rob gets shirtless and puts his body next to hers for Hart to see them together. Hart is upset, but that doesn’t last long because he believes Cassie, so Rob goes back to SF and Hart/Cassie enjoy their time at Cross Creek. Josh later arrives, heartbroken and stoic, and prepares to tell the kids and Cassie/Hart about Reva but Michael runs in and stops him. Outside, they continue to argue about this decision and Michael knocks out Josh. He tells Cassie/Hart that Josh ran back to SF to take care of a work emergency, and that Reva got hung up in Springfield, effectively telling them she’s fine and he’s seen her. Michael rushes out, but Hart is suspicious after finding Josh’s truck when chopping wood. They try calling Josh’s cell phone, and we see Michael driving with an unconscious Josh, and he turns his phone off. So now Michael is obsessed with his project and taking things into his own hands, which seems more villainous now.

Abby and Rick share their wedding news with friends/family, Phillip gives a great toast and they all celebrate. Ben spoils it and Ross tells him they’ve decided to take the plea bargain.

Jesse has renewed his efforts in finding Michelle, with Buzz’s encouragement.  Meanwhile, Michelle and her doctor continue to get closer and they end up kissing. The doctor tells her he’s attracted to her and she wonders what he looks like. He then takes himself off her case because he’s getting too close to her, which upsets Michelle. Jesse finds the facility that Michelle is staying in and ends up seeing her walking around, clearly blind and he realizes the truth that she’s blind. Michelle’s male doctor that likes her sees Jesse and stops him from talking to Michelle and they argue a bit about how he’s seen her with Drew. He pushes Jesse to leave Michelle alone and let her start a new life, but Jesse is able to get a job at the facility and runs into Michelle, who asks who he is. He starts speaking Spanish to her and pretends to be a man named Carlos. Not sure why he won’t just tell her, but we’ll see where this goes. It seems they’re developing a friendship (as Carlos), and my guess is Jesse is getting intel on her true feelings for him first. The male doctor sees that Jesse is now working there and decides to tell Michelle he’ll start working on her case again and be her mentor, and vows to keep Jesse/Michelle apart.

Harley gets Lizzie to open up about their life in Arizona. Lizzie mentions there was a bad man that made Beth really sad all the time. Beth doesn’t know about this but later reminds Lizzie there are things about their past that shouldn’t be shared. Hmm, wonder what it could be. Lizzie later tells Beth/Phillip that she doesn’t like her teacher because he reminds her of Beth’s old boyfriend (Carl) back in Arizona (after her divorce from Phillip). Phillip starts to question who Carl is and Beth tells him she broke up with him, meanwhile Harley plans to get to the bottom of this. Later, she meets with an investigator friend in Arizona and finds out Carl hasn’t been heard of since telling everyone he broke up with Beth.

13 minutes ago, P.J. said:

WHAT NOW? Maura was in the running for Cassie? OH BOY HOWDY...if Kimmy had issues with Cynthia stealing her thunder, she'd have had a meltdown with Maura acting rings around her...

I'm roaring, laughing at the thought of this! Someone must have been having a major brain fart when they came up with this idea.

All this talk about what happened around Van's "deathbed" is reminding me of the disastrous memorial for Bert. A lot of people with little to no connection to Bert, while those who mattered to her were nowhere to be seen. And Mo's funeral, too. 

It seems to me when you do the death (or near death) of a major character, it's a BIG FREAKIN' DEAL. Like a birth or a wedding. Sure, you sometimes can't get certain actors to come back, or whatever, but sounds like in this case many were around.

49 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

Maura West!  Same reaction, wow. 

Based on a news article I just read, it sounds like Jerry had prostate cancer back in 1993, so well before this storyline. But I think you said it well - sadly, the writers/producers didn't care enough to know the backstory/history, or care to give those little character moments that mean so much to viewers. It's all about plot and moving forward in the moment, I guess. In this era with E&B, SO much is going on that I have to imagine it's hard to get certain characters together in scene when their own storylines are going a mile a minute. 

Wow...'93? I had not realized it was so long ago. Oh---and now that I think about it, even Fletch deserved a moment, even as much as I hated his brief affair with Van. lol...which is probably the nicest thing I've said about Fletch in ages.

OMG... even thinking about Maura and Wendy Moniz facing off. LOL...I guess Cassie must not have been originally conceived as a good girl. 'Cause there ain't no way P&G would've slotted Maura in that role after her initial run as Carly.

53 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

I'm roaring, laughing at the thought of this! Someone must have been having a major brain fart when they came up with this idea.

All this talk about what happened around Van's "deathbed" is reminding me of the disastrous memorial for Bert. A lot of people with little to no connection to Bert, while those who mattered to her were nowhere to be seen. And Mo's funeral, too. 

It seems to me when you do the death (or near death) of a major character, it's a BIG FREAKIN' DEAL. Like a birth or a wedding. Sure, you sometimes can't get certain actors to come back, or whatever, but sounds like in this case many were around.

I'm surprised they didn't at least try to get Michael Tylo back, for either Van's return or the birth of Maureen. But honestly, other than Trish and Mindy, I can't think of anyone who wasn't on canvas that Van had been really close to over the years, who wasn't there. 

It's funny: although I never knew that TPTB had tried to get Maura West to play Cassie, I had just been thinking about how Cassie's backstory seemed more appropriate for an actress like Maura West, Sarah Brown, or Ari Zucker, not Laura Wright. We were constantly being told about Cassie's hardscabble past and her work as a stripper, and even though Wright did her best with the material, I just never found it believable that her Cassie had come from that background. Unlike West or Brown, who excel at playing scrappy underdogs, Wright just has too much head cheerleader energy. 

"cheerleader energy"...*snorts milk through nose*  

YEP. Shakin' pom-poms and all. Now that you say that, Reva and Roxie always had a grittiness to them. Laura and Nicole Forrester sure didn't embody that Shayne vibe. (yes, she's not tecnically a Shayne...but still...)

Maura West being offered the role of Cassie fits the timeline of her return to ATWT as Carly. When she returned as Carly, she refused to say how that came about (who approached whom). All she said was "It was complex."

But I could see Maura wanting to give ATWT the first right of refusal before committing to GL. The intriguing aspect of ATWT rehiring Maura is the absence of the entire creative team she last worked with. Plus Mike and Rosanna were off the canvas; those were the only two characters Carly interacted with. She was approaching a brand-new creative team, a new producer, and a new head writer about coming back. That's why the unexpected return of Maura as Carly was so shocking. As it was out of the blue, no one saw the turnaround coming. But it worked out!

Carly had also interacted with Lisa and the Snyders, (I believe it was her first tour where Emma famously compared her to an onion), but as Guiding Light has shown us, new regimes seem to shy away from bringing back characters.

Anyway, and not to derail the thread, it's amazing how the right return can energize a show. Thanks again @alwaysAMC  

5 hours ago, prefab1 said:

It's funny: although I never knew that TPTB had tried to get Maura West to play Cassie, I had just been thinking about how Cassie's backstory seemed more appropriate for an actress like Maura West, Sarah Brown, or Ari Zucker, not Laura Wright. We were constantly being told about Cassie's hardscabble past and her work as a stripper, and even though Wright did her best with the material, I just never found it believable that her Cassie had come from that background. Unlike West or Brown, who excel at playing scrappy underdogs, Wright just has too much head cheerleader energy. 

I didn't think Wright was very believable as a stripper - admittedly most who are cast on soaps aren't going to be - but I didn't have a problem with her as an underdog. Wright had a very hard energy, and it just got harder as the show went along. 

The show rarely let Cassie be an underdog, but when they did, I thought Wright sold it, even in stories I thought were bad and unbelievable (like the forced estrangement from Reva after Richard died).

5 hours ago, P.J. said:

I'm surprised they didn't at least try to get Michael Tylo back, for either Van's return or the birth of Maureen. But honestly, other than Trish and Mindy, I can't think of anyone who wasn't on canvas that Van had been really close to over the years, who wasn't there. 

I think Rauch just didn't care very much about Vanessa. I know he later went off on "Matessa" fans for being entitled, but his anger there seemed to be about how much he'd done for them as a couple. As a character, he did sweet [!@#$%^&*] all for Vanessa. 

6 hours ago, P.J. said:

OMG... even thinking about Maura and Wendy Moniz facing off. LOL...I guess Cassie must not have been originally conceived as a good girl. 'Cause there ain't no way P&G would've slotted Maura in that role after her initial run as Carly.

Wasn't there a claim on here that Cassie was intended to be a major rival for Reva but Kim wanted them to not be at odds?

7 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

It seemed as though when the new head-writers came on in 1997, once the Annie trial was over... the show quickly reunited Josh/Reva and Annie was kept almost in a hamster wheel of obsessing over Josh/Reva instead of trying to rebuild her life and get her sanity back.   The work Long did with Sonni post Josh/Reva proved that a character that wasn't well could function on the canvas in a different orbit so I never understood why the show didn't try to do that with Annie (unless the show knew by mid 1997 that Watros was going to be leaving in a matter of months).

The Vanessa stuff in early 1998 showed to me that the writers didn't really didn't know of her connections/history... or else Ross/Nola/Billy would have had scenes with Van recalling their history and urging her to fight with a jealous Matt left out.  Much had been made about Vanessa feeling insecure because of the age difference.. but I don't recall a lot of focus on Matt feeling insecure/left out/jealous over her connections with both Ross and Billy.  And having Nola there with Buzz/Jenna would have been smart and caused tension between them.

And I remember watching when Cassie first came on in mid 1997 played by Laura Wright (Sisk) and I had to admit I was intrigued to see what she would do with the role, especially after Maura West had supposedly been offered the role and turned it down.   At first, I liked Cassie when she was written as a bit rough around the edges and trying to figure out why Alan/Annie had a thing against Reva/Josh.   Cassie and Billy were tested against one another and I thought they had better chemistry than she did with Hart.

I eventually grew to dislike Cassie once she was pushed onto Hart by the writers and became Saint Reva's sister (when Roxie was a much better and closer sister to Reva back in the day).  Fans didn't like Cassie and thought she was a way for the show to erase Roxie's existence and felt Dinah was trashed/ruined to prop Cassie.

I would guess that Watros made it known well in advance that she was leaving.

As for fans who were upset that Dinah was being ruined to prop other characters, all I have to say is:

 

What was the name of Cassie's creepy son?  I only remember thinking, that kid actor played creepy very well.  And that would've been a fun character to revisit as an adult if had to opportunity.  

6 minutes ago, j swift said:

What was the name of Cassie's creepy son?  I only remember thinking, that kid actor played creepy very well.  And that would've been a fun character to revisit as an adult if had to opportunity.  

Will.