Thanks, Mark - that makes a lot of sense. I wonder how much of that was accidental. Like, the majority of the storyline was taking place on Kay's end of things (with Murphy) and they needed to "kill time" on the Genoa City side of things. And "killing time" ended up being really wonderful character scenes that didn't drive plot - but it's what we've all been craving from soap operas.

See, but right there. The minute you say that, I PINE for Murphy-Kay conversations. I keep praying he'll move the trailer onto the ranch, and it will be his and Kay's hideaway. In my ideal world, each episode would end with a Kay-Murph epilog, them just reviewing the day and interpreting.

They'd burn through so much less plot if they'd just slow down a little and not be afraid to play these things.

We almost universally agree on this, so I wonder what the barrier is? Is it a FEAR that this will drive away plot-addicted younger viewers ("too boring") and ratings will fall? Doesn't the Kay story prove the opposite will happen?

/Maybe because that story at least attempted to make Kay's death resonate throughout the entire canvas(sans Winters, of course. They probably had to enter the funeral home through the back door).

Jill and Esther were involved in this power play, having to share the Chancellor Estate. Amber knew something was fishy, Kevin stole her money and felt guilty about it.

Not to mention the fact that Kay's death wasn't some rehashed, boring quadrangle about some oversexed, under 50 crowd.

Kay/Marge's story wasn't some slow paced, five year tour-de-force with twists and turns, you're absolutely right about that. But it wasn't some fast food plot either.

And it was soap cliche. Yes, it was. But most soap stories are cliches. You just have to find a way to at least put some sort of twist on it. At least the Kay/Marge story wasn't Amber/April.

The bolded line is not funny...but it did make me laugh. Such a sad state for a once revolutionary part of the canvas. Even Aunt Virginia...whom I would have loved to see as a regular new addition...is missing. Sadly, even Y&R seems nervous about giving us the grandmothers and great-aunts. Mary Williams' absence is a palpable miss from

Mary Jane's

story....but then again, so are Heather and Paul's.

Imagine if Heather had scenes of trying to get to know her father and family better. And imagine if, in the process, he talked all about his sister Patty and how he felt about her. And imagine if Mary returned from her church trips (that is where I imagine she has been), and gets to know Heather. And imagine if Mary strenuously objected to that Adam-Wilson-person. Imagine if Mary started crying at the mere mention of her "sweet Patty's" name.

Think how much more the reveal would mean then.

I harken back on how MOVING that Christmas eve was, when Carl was watching his family at church, and flashing back to his family's younger days. It had been built up over months, and now -- at Christmas -- there was hope for a Williams reconciliation. (While that was eventually dashed, it was a terrific beat in the story).

Now, if

MJ is revealed to be a Williams

, who will care?

ETA: I loathe, loathe this new "spoiler" thing. Other invision boards I'm on distinguish between [ spoiler ] (which does what it does here) and "short spoiler" [ sspoiler ], which gives us the blackening we're used to, with a line wrap.

Edited June 30, 200916 yr by MarkH

I'm not asking this to be argumentative (I swear!), and I preface it by saying I loved the Kay/Marge story from beginning to end, thought it was fantastic. But let's face it - the Kay/Marge story was pretty plot-driven as well. Bringing Marge back for a week or two before the car crash, then the crash. Presumed dead. Kay with amnesia. Falls for the stranger taking care of her. Gets memory back. Reclaims life. I mean, it doesn't get more soap cliche than that. (Again, I loved it - so I'm not putting it down)

So I'm curious what people thought was different about the Kay/Marge story that they find missing now from the show.

Yes, and that was an issue with me even then--the pace was way too fast. But, it felt organic because it was a storyline set up from all the way back to 1989, and it was obvious that, despite the too-quick pace, it was very well-thought out and plotted. There was no feeling that they are pulling stuff out of their asses as they do now (you may not agree, but bear with me). There were not any out of the blue twists that made little to no sense. It was OBVIOUS that all this was planned long, long beforehand. But, when it ended, they had no more bible to work from. They just started doing things to fill the time. So the plots went faster and faster and faster. Honestly, we're reaching LML fast right now. But they still took the time to have conversations, Kay and Murphy at least took a couple of months to get together. Plus, the show was starving for a story with a strong, lovable diva. She was the absolute star of the story and it was an amazing tribute to the character. It may have been a succession of soap cliches, but it was done with the characters' integrity in mind. Now, anything, and I mean anything goes. Any character will do anything to suit the plot. In the plot-driven Kay/Marge story, we mostly got all of them acting like they would/should have. Other than that, I have to agree with every single thing that was posted as a response to your question.

P.S. Yes, I wanted the story to last longer. Classic Y&R would still have Kay at the trailer park, her being discovered in November the earliest. Or probably as part of the Christmas miracle.

ETA: I loathe, loathe this new "spoiler" thing. Other invision boards I'm on distinguish between [ spoiler ] (which does what it does here) and "short spoiler" [ sspoiler ], which gives us the blackening we're used to, with a line wrap.

Sound the trumpets, we agree! On everything on that post (which I had to cut for space ) and especially the new spoiler tags. Just absolute hate. I love love love the blackened thing.

ETA: I loathe, loathe this new "spoiler" thing. Other invision boards I'm on distinguish between [ spoiler ] (which does what it does here) and "short spoiler" [ sspoiler ], which gives us the blackening we're used to, with a line wrap.

Sound the trumpets, we agree! On everything on that post (which I had to cut for space ) and especially the new spoiler tags. Just absolute hate. I love love love the blackened thing.

I told you, people, how to do it:

[background=#1c2837]

You type your spoiler here

[/background][/code]

I told you, people, how to do it:

[background=#1c2837]

You type your spoiler here

[/background][/code]



Now tell me how to remember #1c2837 all the time, and I'll be all good. 

I told you, people, how to do it:

[background=#1c2837]

  You type your spoiler here

  [/background][/code]




I have no idea how to do that.  Do I have to post  the whole "background" etc stuff every single time?

Edited June 30, 200916 yr by YRBB

Now tell me how to remember #1c2837 all the time, and I'll be all good.

After five spoilers, you'll remember!

I have no idea how to do that. Do I have to post the whole "background" etc stuff every single time?

Yes, you have to! It's not like you post 100s of spoiler every day, it shouldn't be that hard.

Or perhaps Errol can re-code spoiler tags like this.

I'm not asking this to be argumentative (I swear!), and I preface it by saying I loved the Kay/Marge story from beginning to end, thought it was fantastic. But let's face it - the Kay/Marge story was pretty plot-driven as well. Bringing Marge back for a week or two before the car crash, then the crash. Presumed dead. Kay with amnesia. Falls for the stranger taking care of her. Gets memory back. Reclaims life. I mean, it doesn't get more soap cliche than that. (Again, I loved it - so I'm not putting it down)

So I'm curious what people thought was different about the Kay/Marge story that they find missing now from the show.

It was well written.

Plot point? Sure. All of it. But a well plotted plot point, lol. It also didnt insult us a viewers and it wasnt a bigger retcon to a retcon. It also wasnt demeaning to women. It just worked. It brought the canvas together. It gave a character fans love a great storyline. It gave her a new love, a new view on life.

The show as a whole was actually well done at that point. I cant pinpoint it, but it just worked. Its not working now.

Yes, you have to! It's not like you post 100s of spoiler every day, it shouldn't be that hard.

Or perhaps Errol can re-code spoiler tags like this.

Hahahaha I was afraid you were going to say that! Ah, well, if I have to, I have to. Thanks!

I hope they change it.

As a matter of fact I want triangles etc to last as long as possible. I want the show to commit to them for many years and always find new ways to keep them interesting. Lucas/Sami/Austin/Carrie and Billie/Bo/Hope were great soap stories, if someone likes the JERDAYS style. Brooke/Ridge/Taylor kept B&B interesting for at least ten years, while Lucas/Leslie/Lance/Lori (which I have never watched) also lasted several years.

The problem with the Y&R Quad is that these four people don't belong in a romantic story. Jack was always like a father to Nick and all characters have been ruined in the process for several reasons. The Quad doesn't bring anything to any of them.

As a matter of fact I want triangles etc to last as long as possible. I want the show to commit to them for many years and always find new ways to keep them interesting. Lucas/Sami/Austin/Carrie and Billie/Bo/Hope were great soap stories, if someone likes the JERDAYS style. Brooke/Ridge/Taylor kept B&B interesting for at least ten years, while Lucas/Leslie/Lance/Lori (which I have never watched) also lasted several years.

The problem with the Y&R Quad is that these four people don't belong in a romantic story. Jack was always like a father to Nick and all characters have been ruined in the process for several reasons. The Quad doesn't bring anything to any of them.

Word, Amen, BAM!, and all that!

It was well written.

Plot point? Sure. All of it. But a well plotted plot point, lol. It also didnt insult us a viewers and it wasnt a bigger retcon to a retcon. It also wasnt demeaning to women. It just worked. It brought the canvas together. It gave a character fans love a great storyline. It gave her a new love, a new view on life.

The show as a whole was actually well done at that point. I cant pinpoint it, but it just worked. Its not working now.

Fair enough.

I wasn't trying to prove anybody wrong or anything. Just genuinely curious to know people's responses.

Okay, but here is a testament to the power of negative threads.

I'm on the bus. I'm p!ssed off. I can't defend/rationalize another second. You all picked and picked at my defenses, and now they have crumbled.

Adam-Rafe...what RUINATION yesterday was. No emotional resonance, and not even any skin!

Mary Jane...now a child poisoner who will apparently frame the mother???? This is not the Patty I remember and love. And with no Williams in town who love her or interact with her...why should I care??.

P3. Well...the jury is out, but phrases like "retcon of a retcon" are starting to make me feel very uncomfortable about this story. But I will have an open mind on this.

The quad. Yes. Sharon-Jack NEVER had any romantic rooting value. And Sharon-Nick have been exposed as selfish and rooted in the past (much like Billy is with Mac). I loved Phick...truly...but it all seems like cinders now.

So many characters I loved (Nikki-Paul, Lauren-Michael, JT) all withering on the vine.

Now, I would have ignored these things forever...but you all keep putting them in my face. And now I'm angry with the show.

As a matter of fact I want triangles etc to last as long as possible. I want the show to commit to them for many years and always find new ways to keep them interesting. Lucas/Sami/Austin/Carrie and Billie/Bo/Hope were great soap stories, if someone likes the JERDAYS style. Brooke/Ridge/Taylor kept B&B interesting for at least ten years, while Lucas/Leslie/Lance/Lori (which I have never watched) also lasted several years.

The problem with the Y&R Quad is that these four people don't belong in a romantic story. Jack was always like a father to Nick and all characters have been ruined in the process for several reasons. The Quad doesn't bring anything to any of them.

Actually... I don't know whether your post shows quadrangles work or whether in the end they kill the show. I guess the keyword is: moderation.

Okay, but here is a testament to the power of negative threads.

I'm on the bus. I'm p!ssed off. I can't defend/rationalize another second. You all picked and picked at my defenses, and now they have crumbled.

Adam-Rafe...what RUINATION yesterday was. No emotional resonance, and not even any skin!

Mary Jane...now a child poisoner who will apparently frame the mother???? This is not the Patty I remember and love. And with no Williams in town who love her or interact with her...why should I care??.

P3. Well...the jury is out, but phrases like "retcon of a retcon" are starting to make me feel very uncomfortable about this story. But I will have an open mind on this.

The quad. Yes. Sharon-Jack NEVER had any romantic rooting value. And Sharon-Nick have been exposed as selfish and rooted in the past (much like Billy is with Mac). I loved Phick...truly...but it all seems like cinders now.

So many characters I loved (Nikki-Paul, Lauren-Michael, JT) all withering on the vine.

Now, I would have ignored these things forever...but you all keep putting them in my face. And now I'm angry with the show.

I can almost hear Alvin standing up and cheering right now.

I can almost hear Alvin standing up and cheering right now.

I can do that for ya!