The Estella stuff wouldn't bother me if we were not being asked to care. It's like on Knots Landing, when Lotus Point suddenly had toxic chemicals and Karen started talking about the gardener, Mr. Lee, and how ill he had become. We never saw Mr. Lee, and we continued to never see him, as he got sicker and sicker, and finally, he died. Then we got to see Karen in tears over this man we never knew. Estella isn't as bad as that was, but I can't care about her when we barely know her. I hoped by this time I would care about Rafe, but they haven't made any effort to let viewers get to know him. I assume they are deliberately showing him as little as possible, so we'll only see him as a plot device, or a pawn, and not someone we will ever be interested in.

This story should take a toll on longtime viewers because of what Ashley is being put through, since she's been nothing but kind to Adam, but Eileen Davidson seems to be sleepwalking through the entire story. I'm not sure if she's trying and I'm not seeing it, or if she just doesn't care because she knows none of this has any relevance to her character anyway.

Unless Mary Jane and Adam arrange to quietly provide him with Sharon's living unborn child. Then TGVN need never know... (Yes, I'm still channeling this, though I know it will never happen).

ETA: ANTI-BRITTANY HODGES VOTE! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot wait for MJ and Adam to meet. I speculate - Victor will lower the boom on MJ and force her out of town and she goes nuts on him, incapacitating him somehow - either taking him prisoner, coma, unable to speak somehow and Adam catches her, ever so happy, cause Victor finally knew he was behind the whole thing. REALLY early squishy name for MJ and Adam = Madam!

The Estella stuff wouldn't bother me if we were not being asked to care. It's like on Knots Landing, when Lotus Point suddenly had toxic chemicals and Karen started talking about the gardener, Mr. Lee, and how ill he had become. We never saw Mr. Lee, and we continued to never see him, as he got sicker and sicker, and finally, he died. Then we got to see Karen in tears over this man we never knew. Estella isn't as bad as that was, but I can't care about her when we barely know her. I hoped by this time I would care about Rafe, but they haven't made any effort to let viewers get to know him. I assume they are deliberately showing him as little as possible, so we'll only see him as a plot device, or a pawn, and not someone we will ever be interested in.

This story should take a toll on longtime viewers because of what Ashley is being put through, since she's been nothing but kind to Adam, but Eileen Davidson seems to be sleepwalking through the entire story. I'm not sure if she's trying and I'm not seeing it, or if she just doesn't care because she knows none of this has any relevance to her character anyway.

I'm totally different. I totally feel for poor Estella.

I really don't care for Estella. Always found her creepy, boring and useless.

Oh my goodness...that Billy and Mac dancing scene on the CL porch was ... lame.

I really don't care for Estella. Always found her creepy, boring and useless.

How can you say that? Don't you remember when she was a bridesmaid at Nikki's and Victor's wedding, and when she helped Victoria learn her ABCs (she's still trying to help Nick learn his), when she helped cure the agorophobia which kept Nikki housebound for most of 1993-1994, when she saved Noah from being run over by Katherine when she had a few too many and took the golf cart for a spin? Estella's been a part of our lives. And now she's gone, without even as much as that beautiful clock they gave Miguel after he disappeared.

Edited June 22, 200916 yr by CarlD2

Oh my goodness...that Billy and Mac dancing scene on the CL porch was ... lame.

Yeah, the forced coupling is dragging down both actors. I'm not that big on Clementine Ford, but Billy Miller is seriously losing points with this viewer... I can hardly stand Billy ever since Mac came back.

How can you say that? Don't you remember when she was a bridesmaid at Nikki's and Victor's wedding, and when she helped Victoria learn her ABCs (she's still trying to help Nick learn his), when she helped cure the agorophobia which kept Nikki housebound for most of 1993-1994, when she saved Noah from being run over by Katherine when she had a few too many and took the golf cart for a spin? Estella's been a part of our lives. And now she's gone, without even as much as that beautiful clock they gave Miguel after he disappeared.

Hahahahha... seriously... this was the stupidest retcon of this writing team... there's absolutely no need for us to care about Estella, yet they're rewriting history just for her. Nobody cares. I didn't even care when Victor fired all of his staff last summer.

Wow, this design is so amateurish... It's starting to hurt my eye. Sorry for going OT.

I didn't even care when Victor fired all of his staff last summer.

See, I did. I hated that all those people were thrown out of work on his whim.

Looking back, I wonder if Victor firing everyone was a poke at LML firing longtime Y&R crew and writers.

I would say Estella can work with Mamie, but I'm not sure where Mamie is now.

See, I did. I hated that all those people were thrown out of work on his whim.

Who likes seeing poor people get wrongfully fired? Not I. And just the way the actress plays her is funny. I still wish we could have gotten a scene of Esther and Estella getting drunk at the bar. Speaking of Estella - i think they should have made Raul related to them or something. Not that I think all minority characters should be related somehow, but to give them even more of a presence on the show, give Rafe someone to talk to.

Who likes seeing poor people get wrongfully fired? Not I. And just the way the actress plays her is funny. I still wish we could have gotten a scene of Esther and Estella getting drunk at the bar. Speaking of Estella - i think they should have made Raul related to them or something. Not that I think all minority characters should be related somehow, but to give them even more of a presence on the show, give Rafe someone to talk to.

Would it mean anything since Raul won't be around anyway?

If they wanted us to care more, they could have said that Estella had been working on a different position at the ranch or something... but still, making up history just for this little conflict really isn't that important. If they put so much thought into the neglected characters...

Would it mean anything since Raul won't be around anyway?

If they wanted us to care more, they could have said that Estella had been working on a different position at the ranch or something... but still, making up history just for this little conflict really isn't that important. If they put so much thought into the neglected characters...

i thought it was assumed that Estella was working on the ranch in another position and then she was promoted once Miguel left.

Rafe already has someone he could talk to (Billy). I think they just, for whatever reason, don't want to let us see his point of view as a character. At least not for some time.

Why does Estella keep showing up at the ranch? Considerng what she's bein accused of, she needs to stay away. She's making it so easy for Adam to frame her

What the heck is Philips motivations for decieving his family, especially Nina and his son? I wasnt watching when he was alive but what a rotten thing to do

Speaking of Nina, what happened to her boring husband that she left with years ago?

Why does Estella keep showing up at the ranch? Considerng what she's bein accused of, she needs to stay away. She's making it so easy for Adam to frame her

What the heck is Philips motivations for decieving his family, especially Nina and his son? I wasnt watching when he was alive but what a rotten thing to do

Speaking of Nina, what happened to her boring husband that she left with years ago?

She doesn't know that Adam is framing her...

Since Bierdz has pretty much said that he doesn't want to act and that he returned because he could be himself, I'm guessing the reason will be Phillip's homosexuality... or at least the homosexuality of his son.

It was Tomas, but he left a few weeks before Nina did after they broke up or were in a fight. She left the town on her own. They never got married.