So, this is an interesting statement. The only "on the record" statements we have about this are from VR herself, who expressed her reasons (in several venues) for leaving the LML-Y&R.

Nowhere have I ever read/heard before that other regimes had difficulty with her.

True enough. But it's not like anyone's offering to bring her back, and a few times, she's left under "controversial" circumstances. And also know now about the things that went down during other regimes with various actors (Khalil, Kristoff, Bergman, Stafford) that clearly were kept out of the press at the time.

For me, the question is not about Rowell. It is about how to repair the gaping ruins in the show's African American family.

In total agreement on this one. It's not about bringing Drucilla back - it's about putting the African-American characters back in three-dimensional, plotted out, long-term stories where they belong, mixing it up with everyone on the canvas.

Edited June 1, 200916 yr by brimike

And no, I do not want Sally Suckass Moron-a on this show again and her possibly ripping off her original and boring as hell Generations bible.

I agree she sucks. Wasn't she responsible for Kevin the vampire (albeit brief) when John broke his hip and the sexy nurse was brought in?

I agree she sucks. Wasn't she responsible for Kevin the vampire (albeit brief) when John broke his hip and the sexy nurse was brought in?

I think so, and it was also her idea to have Sheila poison Lauren with a necklace.

Where is the proof of Rowell's impact in the ratings? Mark, do any of your charts show a correlation between Rowell's exits and the ratings on Y&R?

I don't remember exactly when in 1998 Rowell first exited.

But I know her second stint ended in August 2000.

and her final stint was from August 15th, 2002 to April 6, 2007.

The dates helped. My data only go to 2000.

As you can see the ratings certainly declined after her 2000 departure. But they declined at the same rate they were falling when she was there. There was the same catastrophic ratings decline all through the Alden era. It was really awful.

Now, I also put a box around her 2002-2007 run. And that shows varying slopes of stability and decline...but there is no appreciable "Rowell effect".

ETA: I think I needed to extend that box a little more into the purple Latham zone...but you can see the departure had no appreciable effect.

In total agreement on this one. It's not about bringing Drucilla back - it's about putting the African-American characters back in three-dimensional, plotted out, long-term stories where they belong, mixing it up with everyone on the canvas.

BAM!

I agree she sucks. Wasn't she responsible for Kevin the vampire (albeit brief) when John broke his hip and the sexy nurse was brought in?

Kevin's shirt was open or off during that. I remember that.

The nurse was sexy.

It was all funny and it only lasted a few days. No harm no foul. And Kevin's shirt was open for a scene or two during that.

I think so, and it was also her idea to have Sheila poison Lauren with a necklace.

Alright...admittedly...campy ridiculous. But it only lasted for a few shows. Again, it was vaguely amusing.

Let's put it this way...absolutely no worse than "boxing with your inner chipmunk".

Edited June 1, 200916 yr by MarkH

but there is no appreciable "Rowell effect".

Glad this puts to an end that ridiculous myth/agenda.

Everyday people have to work with people they don't like Al lthese ricch butt people need to suck it up.

I guess if you compare the Nielsen surveys that came out in 2005 and then again in 2007 and judge for yourself how that might have impacted the show, you can possibly see what changed dramatically between that time, even if you don't have the concrete results

DaytimeFan brought this up several times about CLB fairing horribly with the Nielsen survey and focus groups as a leading man on the show, and I'm also guessing CLB doesn't have a high Q score in a leading capacity either.

He must have had more favourable results in a supporting capacity, than a leading one. It really doesn't damage his career unless he tests horribly again in a leading capacity in his next project, should he be able to move on from Y&R and gain better employment.

This is all pure speculation and rationalization for not using CLB more. Unless I read it myself I find it hard to believe that he did so poorly in any surveys. He obviously was a favorite of Jack Smith who when he left stated he was proud of creating the Lauren and Michael pairing. Lauren and Michael had the big wedding in 2005 which garnered high ratings (4.7) and then as soon as LML took over they were immediately turned into supporting characters. I understood that to a point because they had heavy play in 2005. At the time, Michael was lead, the Michael and Lauren pairing was extremely popular not only in the press but also with critics. The original Kevin and Michael story was very well recieved by fans and the critics and most believed both CLB and GR deserved the emmys they earned that year. So that CLB polled so poorly then, just doesn't make much sense to me. And by 2007, CLB was no longer a lead. LML used him as support, significant support but support. The only story he lead was the Pheila story (Jan and Feb 2007) which ironically was the highest rated story under LML (mid 4s).

I don't have a problem with CLB and TEB being supporting players because obviously LML and now MAB want them in that role. But I doubt it is because CLB does not test well with fans. Also, why is it that recurring characters like Michael Fairman (Murphy) can get lots of airtime and I am sure Tricia Cast will be used quite a bit this summer and is recurring. But TEB will only be used once or twice a month because they can't afford her? Why is it that every week we keep hearing about how more and more characters are being written into the show? Then you have certain actors you just know are going over their guarantees because they are on 4 or 5 days a week, every week. Doesn't that cost the show quite a bit? Are you saying that TEB is going to break the show if they use her say twice a week or eight times a month instead of twice a month? That doesn't make sense.

I think, and this is just my speculation, Michael and Lauren don't get story because MAB doesn't want to write for them for some reason. Maybe she will write for them in the future, but she would rather write for her favorites and bring on more characters for those storylines than bother to think up a story for Michael and Lauren. I don't have a problem with her having favorites by the way, I just think it is a headwriter's job to use her cast, especially talented members.

This is all pure speculation and rationalization for not using CLB more. Unless I read it myself I find it hard to believe that he did so poorly in any surveys. He obviously was a favorite of Jack Smith who when he left stated he was proud of creating the Lauren and Michael pairing. Lauren and Michael had the big wedding in 2005 which garnered high ratings (4.7) and then as soon as LML took over they were immediately turned into supporting characters. I understood that to a point because they had heavy play in 2005. At the time, Michael was lead, the Michael and Lauren pairing was extremely popular not only in the press but also with critics. The original Kevin and Michael story was very well recieved by fans and the critics and most believed both CLB and GR deserved the emmys they earned that year. So that CLB polled so poorly then, just doesn't make much sense to me. And by 2007, CLB was no longer a lead. LML used him as support, significant support but support. The only story he lead was the Pheila story (Jan and Feb 2007) which ironically was the highest rated story under LML (mid 4s).

I don't have a problem with CLB and TEB being supporting players because obviously LML and now MAB want them in that role. But I doubt it is because CLB does not test well with fans. Also, why is it that recurring characters like Michael Fairman (Murphy) can get lots of airtime and I am sure Tricia Cast will be used quite a bit this summer and is recurring. But TEB will only be used once or twice a month because they can't afford her? Why is it that every week we keep hearing about how more and more characters are being written into the show? Then you have certain actors you just know are going over their guarantees because they are on 4 or 5 days a week, every week. Doesn't that cost the show quite a bit? Are you saying that TEB is going to break the show if they use her say twice a week or eight times a month instead of twice a month? That doesn't make sense.

I think, and this is just my speculation, Michael and Lauren don't get story because MAB doesn't want to write for them for some reason. Maybe she will write for them in the future, but she would rather write for her favorites and bring on more characters for those storylines than bother to think up a story for Michael and Lauren. I don't have a problem with her having favorites by the way, I just think it is a headwriter's job to use her cast, especially talented members.

Well, I guess I should say I don't really miss Michael. Oh, maybe I'd like to see him a little more...but the point is he is around and doing GREAT work. As lousy as the Michael Gross visit was, Michael's scenes with him in the warehouse were terrific.

And when Phyllis told Michael about Nick's sleeping with Sharon the first time, he was amazing.

And when Eden was arrested for the books, he was a rock.

And when he saw Kevin in the padded cell, his eyes told the whole story of his horror.

He was great in all of this. Yes, it was supporting..but it was remarkable and Emmy-worthy (as supporting actor).

We've seen less of Lauren, and that is the problem. She "brings it" each time they use her (Eden and the bookstore, Eden and sex, Phyllis in jail, apologizing to Traci twice).

So, you know, I don't think we necessarily need more story for them now...the canvas is stuffed. We just need more airtime.

Everyday people have to work with people they don't like Al lthese ricch butt people need to suck it up.

I agree with that to a point, but VR has to get along with those she works with also. There have been a number of interviews from actors who infer that while she was talented she was difficult to work with and did not always work well in an ensemble. I think the point is mute anyway, because VR has burned any bridges there may have been to bring her back with her continuing comments about the cast of the show. It's a shame because the show could use her, but at what cost.

I honestly don't get VR. She says she would like Dru to come back and then does intereviews where she makes it virtually impossible for them to bring her back. Is she doing this to get more publicity and to sell more books?

I love VR but I don't have an "agenda". Yeesh. Didn't TV Guide say that A-A viewers left Y&R when SM left and then again when VR left? I thought for sure that VR had a a sizable fanbase. Regardless, she was definitely the most interesting part of the Winters family.

I think the real reason we've seen less CLB is that he's relatively expensive. Michael is surely the most popular Fisher-Baldwin but he sure aint the cheapest. It's probably the same reason MTS has been given her bare minimum of screen days. There have been countless episodes where Michael and/or Lauren should have made an appearance but TPTB just don't want to pay them their daily rate if all they're doing is being a talk-to for Phyllis.

Well, I guess I should say I don't really miss Michael. Oh, maybe I'd like to see him a little more...but the point is he is around and doing GREAT work. As lousy as the Michael Gross visit was, Michael's scenes with him in the warehouse were terrific.

And when Phyllis told Michael about Nick's sleeping with Sharon the first time, he was amazing.

And when Eden was arrested for the books, he was a rock.

And when he saw Kevin in the padded cell, his eyes told the whole story of his horror.

He was great in all of this. Yes, it was supporting..but it was remarkable and Emmy-worthy (as supporting actor).

We've seen less of Lauren, and that is the problem. She "brings it" each time they use her (Eden and the bookstore, Eden and sex, Phyllis in jail, apologizing to Traci twice).

So, you know, I don't think we necessarily need more story for them now...the canvas is stuffed. We just need more airtime.

Ok, then MAB needs to give them more airtime if she isn't willing to give them any story. The problem is they are not getting much of either. And yes, the bigger problem is the lack of use of Tracey Bregman.

And then plan a story for them in the fall instead of thinking up new stories for the same characters she has been using on frontburner once their current stories are played out. And no I am not suggesting the big characters should be backburned. I just think that Michael and Lauren should get one story this year to play for a couple months.

This is all pure speculation and rationalization for not using CLB more. Unless I read it myself I find it hard to believe that he did so poorly in any surveys. He obviously was a favorite of Jack Smith who when he left stated he was proud of creating the Lauren and Michael pairing. Lauren and Michael had the big wedding in 2005 which garnered high ratings (4.7) and then as soon as LML took over they were immediately turned into supporting characters. I understood that to a point because they had heavy play in 2005. At the time, Michael was lead, the Michael and Lauren pairing was extremely popular not only in the press but also with critics.

The original Kevin and Michael story was very well recieved by fans and the critics and most believed both CLB and GR deserved the emmys they earned that year.

So that CLB polled so poorly then, just doesn't make much sense to me.

The Nielsen surveys obviously have some sway. I don't think it was any coinsidence that Jack Smith was ousted soon after those results came in, and Michael has lingered in the supporting capacity since then.

That's all subjective, not everyone liked those stories. Being popular doesn't mean you'll test well with focus groups and in surveys. The randomly selected groups might not like what a large portion of the audience likes. It's not a fair system, but networks and shows live by them sadly.

The Emmy's are widely considered a joke in the industry, the Daytime Emmy's that is. Everyone knows they amount to absolutely nothing, don't generate any type of substancial ratings, and means nothing when actors seek employment outside of daytime. They've lost whatever credibility they might have had years ago.

And by 2007, CLB was no longer a lead. LML used him as support, significant support but support. The only story he lead was the Pheila story (Jan and Feb 2007) which ironically was the highest rated story under LML (mid 4s).

CLB was only ever a lead in 2004-2005, he was not a lead character before or after that. I think it's obvious management sees how much better he tests when he isn't lead and they feel more comfortable writing him as supporting, which he has been for the majority of his time on this show anyway.

I don't have a problem with CLB and TEB being supporting players because obviously LML and now MAB want them in that role. But I doubt it is because CLB does not test well with fans.

Fans don't make up focus groups, they're usually randomly selected. It's sad, but more than often, most people in these groups aren't fans, but again, networks and shows live by them. But also, for as many people that like him, there's also going to be Y&R fans who are not fond of him either.

Also, why is it that recurring characters like Michael Fairman (Murphy) can get lots of airtime and I am sure Tricia Cast will be used quite a bit this summer and is recurring.

What lots of airtime is Michael Fairman getting? He isn' carrying any storyline, and outside of Katherine, he doesn't interact with many people. His scenes are throwaway scenes, and if he wasn't with Katherine, he wouldn't be on at all. Obviously Katherine is very frontburner right now, so that will impact those around her.

I wouldn't worry about Tricia Cast, she's likely to be gone in a few months anyway. She lives in Nashville and they'll likely only use her to finish this story.

But TEB will only be used once or twice a month because they can't afford her? Why is it that every week we keep hearing about how more and more characters are being written into the show?

Again, most of the recurring characters carry no storyline, not Fairman or Cast. They're only being used because they're tired to a frontburner character. Tracey is not tied to anyone on the frontburner at the moment, and likely never will be again. It's sad if you're a fan, but who knows what the future brings for the character/actress.

Then you have certain actors you just know are going over their guarantees because they are on 4 or 5 days a week, every week. Doesn't that cost the show quite a bit?

Every actor has a different set guarantee in their contracts, so it can be totally possible. I don't know the specifics of everyone's contract.

Are you saying that TEB is going to break the show if they use her say twice a week or eight times a month instead of twice a month? That doesn't make sense.

No, but no one in her family is carrying a big storyline, so they won't be using her for anything significantly. She's not STRONGLY tied to anyone on the frontburner, and she doesn't have a contract, so they can't guarantee her any amount of episodes per year.

I think, and this is just my speculation, Michael and Lauren don't get story because MAB doesn't want to write for them for some reason.

This is pure speculation as well, we just don't know, it could be for a number of reasons, not just one.

Maybe she will write for them in the future, but she would rather write for her favorites and bring on more characters for those storylines than bother to think up a story for Michael and Lauren.

The cast is huge and MAB doesn't seem to know what her problems are. She likes to keep poorly developed characters like Tyra for some reason...

I don't have a problem with her having favorites by the way, I just think it is a headwriter's job to use her cast, especially talented members.

Talent is subjective to everyone, but there's a huge problem with characters being ignored on this show, and MAB refusing to get rid of certain characters that she just can't write for or ones that are poorly received.

Edited June 1, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

I love VR but I don't have an "agenda". Yeesh. Didn't TV Guide say that A-A viewers left Y&R when SM left and then again when VR left? I thought for sure that VR had a a sizable fanbase. Regardless, she was definitely the most interesting part of the Winters family.

I think the real reason we've seen less CLB is that he's relatively expensive. Michael is surely the most popular Fisher-Baldwin but he sure aint the cheapest. It's probably the same reason MTS has been given her bare minimum of screen days. There have been countless episodes where Michael and/or Lauren should have made an appearance but TPTB just don't want to pay them their daily rate if all they're doing is being a talk-to for Phyllis.

So they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They aren't getting any story because MAB would rather write for others so aren't used much and then can't even be used as support because they cost too much to be talk to's?

I still wonder how the show can afford to pay their top players (Katherine, Jack, Victor, Phyllis, Nick, Sharon) who must make more than CLB and who obviously must be going over their contract guarantees and yet actors like CLB and MTS don't get story because they have to save money. By the way, I think the lack of Nikki probably has more to do with the show positioning themselves in case she decides to leave than not deeming Nikki worthy of story. I imagine if she takes the pay cut, her story will be ratcheted up.

The Nielsen surveys obviously have some sway. I don't think it was any coinsidence that Jack Smith was ousted soon after those results came in, and Michael has lingered in the supporting capacity since then.

That's all subjective, not everyone liked those stories. Being popular doesn't mean you'll test well with focus groups and in surveys. The randomly selected groups might not like what a large portion of the audience likes. It's not a fair system, but networks and shows live by them sadly.

The Emmy's are widely considered a joke in the industry, the Daytime Emmy's that is. Everyone knows they amount to absolutely nothing, don't generate any type of substancial ratings, and means nothing when actors seek employment outside of daytime. They've lost whatever credibility they might have had years ago.

CLB was only ever a lead in 2004-2005, he was not a lead character before or after that. I think it's obvious management sees how much better he tests when he isn't lead and they feel more comfortable writing him as supporting, which he has been for the majority of his time on this show anyway.

Fans don't make up focus groups, they're usually randomly selected. It's sad, but more than often, most people in these groups aren't fans, but again, networks and shows live by them. But also, for as many people that like him, there's also going to be Y&R fans who are not fond of him either.

What lots of airtime is Michael Fairman getting? He isn' carrying any storyline, and outside of Katherine, he doesn't interact with many people. His scenes are throwaway scenes, and if he wasn't with Katherine, he wouldn't be on at all. Obviously Katherine is very frontburner right now, so that will impact those around her.

I wouldn't worry about Tricia Cast, she's likely to be gone in a few months anyway. She lives in Nashville and they'll likely only use her to finish this story.

Again, most of the recurring characters carry no storyline, not Fairman or Cast. They're only being used because they're tired to a frontburner character. Tracey is not tied to anyone on the frontburner at the moment, and likely never will be again. It's sad if you're a fan, but who knows what the future brings for the character/actress.

Every actor has a different set guarantee in their contracts, so it can be totally possible. I don't know the specifics of everyone's contract.

No, but no one in her family is carrying a big storyline, so they won't be using her for anything significantly. She's not STRONGLY tied to anyone on the frontburner, and she doesn't have a contract, so they can't guarantee her any amount of episodes per year.

This is pure speculation as well, we just don't know, it could be for a number of reasons, not just one.

The cast is huge and MAB doesn't seem to know what her problems are. She likes to keep poorly developed characters like Tyra for some reason...

Talent is subjective to everyone, but there's a huge problem with characters being ignored on this show, and MAB refusing to get rid of certain characters that she just can't write for or ones that are poorly received.

Everything you say makes sense, but in the end what does it mean? Will we only see Lauren once or twice a month from now on, and only expect the same type of play for Michael and Lauren? Doesn't their history, popularity and talent mean anything? And yes, I know all of this is subjective, but I think CLB and TEB have proven they have talent and the fans enjoy watching them when they have story. I guess my main problem is that MAB isn't even writing them as support at this point.

By the way, I am going off Michael Fairman's appearances. I get that Murphy is getting more appearances because he is tied to Katherine, and I also get than Nina will get more appearances because of the Philip story. But one has to wonder, why did MAB decide to bring back a long dead character? Yes, some are excited about Thoms Bierdz returning but there certainly was no clamor for Philip III to be resurrected and for him to come back. Yes, they needed to fix the Cane fiasco, but they didn't need to go back 20 years and change history to do so. Maybe it will be a good story, but it is not an easy story to sell or write.

It really is subjective and based on what the writers are interested in writing. I guess Michael and Lauren drew the short stick. Never thought, as a Lauren and Michael fan, that they would be used this way under a Bell. On well, on with the episode talk since I know Michael and Lauren will not be on the show again this week.

Edited June 1, 200916 yr by lmfan

I kind of feel bad for Tracey though, they only really have room for her when they can land Kimberlin Brown back as Sheila. I think that's a rare occasion where the villain became more popular than the hero/heroine.

But Sheila is so played out, I hope she never returns to Y&R or B&B again...