Y&R: Shocking Role Recast

[Soapsuds]

And one wonders what they are

I am Chris Engen talked out. He isn't coming back. He has been replaced by someone else. The only thing left is to see where he lands if anywhere at all.

[SteveFrame]

I will repeat it again and again. I disagreed with the fact that your definition is restrictive. It is black and white, my way or the highway type of belief - the same type of belief that you accuse the other side of having. It is not open to trying to understand anything. you can try to understand without justifying something.

Is that a concept that is totally lost on people these days. Neither side is trying to understand each other at all. It is if you don't see it my way then you are homophobe. We don't even take the time to say hey why don't you feel that way or what can I do to make you feel better about this situation. No we would rather stand over here and say that well if you are uncomfortable with me then you are a homophobe so be gone with you or who cares about you.

I'm sorry but a lack of understanding or teaching or being uncomfortable is not homophobia and you can disguise it any way you want in your definitions but it is not.

It is not black and white in every situation and it is not this or that. You have to look at the situation because many times there is a whole lot more that goes into things. You cannot - well you can but you are wrong if you do IMO - but it is wrong in my mind to judge someone and lable them just because of your percaption of what they are - especially when you do not know for sure.

That is what I disagree wtih.

I am not saying that Chris Engen is right for feeling that way. I don't think he is if he really feels that way. Does that make him a bad person? Not in my mind. As I said before until he comes out and tells me he hates gays and wants me dead, then I am not going to judge him. And I'm sorry I do not see him as hating gays until he does that. He may not understand my lifestyle or feel comfortable with it but that does not instantly make him hate me.

To me you have already judged Engen guilty; his trial is over and you are ready to exact punishment on him. That is exactly the way you come off in your posts to me. That is the same way that Perez comes off to me. And I think that is wrong.

The last I looked this is still America where you are innocent until proven guilty.

I'm sorry but when people hear the word "homophobe" they think of the crazy Baptist minister out in Oklahoma. And to me Engen is sitll far from that but people will read the word homophobe and forever associate Engen with it now. That is the label attached to him. And that is wrong.

And it will make many feel sorry for him and further hate gays and set the movement back another ten or fifteen years. The damage that has been done by this narrowminded way of thinking has hurt any ground we have made in the last year.

To me your narrow definition of homophobe fits so many people including Obama himself. He has said over and over that he fully believes that marriage is for a man and a woman. He believes in making us different by giving us gay unions which means we are not good enough for what the rest of the country has. Obama is supposedly the best friend gays have had in a long time in politics, but everything you are saying in your definitions even calls him a homophobe.

I just think it is too restrictive and that is what I disagree with.

[Cashton]

It's not my fault when "people hear the word homophobe they think of a crazy Baptist preacher". Fearing something does not make them a hater just as Obama's grandmother who raised a black man yet feared a black man passing her in the street, does notmake her a racist. if you don't like the definiton of homophobia take it up with the dictionary, my friend! Again, a homophobe is not the same thing as a biggot.

Politics in general is a very different story as your comparison on Obama goes, by the way.

People don't want Engen to labeled a homophobe cause it might mean they'd probably be labeled so as well. If we were talking about him being forced to kiss a gay man on his free time it's a totally different story. He came to Y&R, they didn't come to him. He acted irrationally and that's what i'm talking about. The irrational behavior over something so inconsequential as a kiss is what I have a problem with.

ETA: The gay kiss means much more to Engen than it does to non-homophobic str8 people (Muhney, Gellman, Silberman, Riegel, Braun, to name just a few).

[SteveFrame]

WE are never going to agree and that does not matter to me.

I can to the dictionary all I want. And that just proves my point. You judge it by the dictionary - again black and white. Everything is not black and white. There are gray areas. Words over time evolve in people's minds and take on whole differnt meanings according to their life perceptions. And homophobe is one of those words whether you want to admit it or not. It is not all black and white. And simply saying that it is not your fault is not a defense in my book. That is just saying well that is their problem and who cares.

Just because the dictionary says something you cannot apply what that says to every single situation and that is what you try to do except for you to allow a gray area for politics and Obama.

To me your dictionary definition says it all. So if I go just there and don't weigh in any thing else my example holds true.

Anyway we are not ever going to get anywhere and I don't see any reason to continue this.

I will say again and I'm out - we will never get anywhere and never proceed with anything until we are willing to come off the line some of us want to stand on and that is on both sides. We cannot ever move forward until someone comes off those lines.

But I don't see it changing. So I don't see any need to discuss it any further.

As I said I thought this was America but again I am reminded that free speech and other acronyms like guilty until proven innocent only apply in any situation when we want it to or the person feels the same way as we do.

Over and out. I'm going to play Scrabble. It is a better use of my time right now.

[Cashton]

Steve - enjoy your scrabble game. I'm going out myself! But you still missed my point - being a homophobe isn't bad, as everyone has predjudices. Yes, you can like, dislike, fear, not fear, hate, not hate anything you like. But homophobia should not be appluaded, defended or congratulated in any degree as it has been done here and everywhere - and it should be something that is not tolerated (black, white, gray or any shade) when those 'beliefs' come to light.

The way this country moved further in terms of its past injustices is that the people who used to proudly display their hate of people for whatever reason, have been shamed into keeping their biased views to themselves.

[cara mia]

I think a lot of us are using the word "homophobe" in the way that Perez Hilton is intending it on his website -- as a rabid gay hater. Isn't that a big part of the debate?

[bellcurve]

How do we know those people AREN'T homophobic? Because they say so in interviews? Because they actually kiss someone of the same-sex for the paycheck? Just because you’re straight and kiss someone of the same sex as an actor doesn't make you comfortable with homosexuality or comfortable with gays.

And quite frankly, I don't like being labeled a homophobe or a self-loathing gay because I'm not quick to label Engen as so or because I have some sort of sympathy for him. Yeah, it was in poor judgment of him to sign a contract without stipulating what he would/would not do or even sign a contract on a soap, not being ready to do anything. But having people like YOU being quick to judge without even for one second stopping your agenda pushing and accusing anyone who doesn't agree with you as being "against the cause" makes me sick!

Anyway, the second Maria saw where the story was going, she should have consulted with him about it. And not only because of the gay kiss aspect of it, but from a "How can I accurately portray this without this twist coming from left field" kind of standpoint. If she would have done that, we probably would have had NuAdam by now instead of having him jump in during the middle of a crucial story beat. We have heard so many actors complain about how they were completely blindsighted by a story twist. Yes, the difference between them and Engen is that they played the story, while he opted to leave with what he thought was his dignity. It's unprofessional, but at the same time, who wants to be held somewhere against their will?

[bellcurve]

That's exactly what I mean. Perez and other outlets use the word "homophobe," not in terms of being uncomfortable with a kiss, but as being someone who condones violence against gays, doesn't support gays or gay marriage, etc.

I know people who support gay rights but would never kiss or have sex or simulate sex with someone of the same sex. Does that make them a "homophobe"?

[cara mia]

Nia Peeple's interview really opened up my eyes to the dysfunction on the set. Let's also remember that Paul Rauch does not have the best reputation for working with actors. Engen is definitely to be faulted for his errors, but at the same time, it says something good about him that he wanted to actually make sense of his character. Compare that for a second the many many actors on the show who are just line readers. Whether or not people enjoyed CE's performance is subjective, but I don't think anyone can deny that he put a lot of thought into how to play his part. This could be a situation of Engen balking over a kiss because he was uncomfortable but it could also be a case of him balking over a kiss because he did not understand what the writers were doing and he needed that understanding to play the role effectively. He could have just pulled a Daniel Goddard and just spouted his lines earnestly but that's not acting. With all the wild re-writing, it's CE's performance that kept the Adam character in any way credible over the last year. Maybe this was true creative differences. CE complained because he cared. The producers hated him for complaining and didn't care that he cared and a vicious cycle set in where there was so much tension & unhappiness that the kiss become a bigger deal than it would have been under different circumstances. If Engen ever does act again professionally, I would not be surprised to see him willing to do a same-sex kiss under different circumstances. That's my problem with Branco & Hilton. The turned the kiss into the entire story when it may have just been the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

It's a soap opera, shocking plot twists come and go. If the show is really intent on keeping spoilers from leaking, which they are, they aren't going to inform their actors on every plot twist. Jess Walton talked about this in a recent interview how she didn't know Jill wasn't Kay's daughter until she got her scripts. Also, the show went through all the trouble of keeping Thom Bierdz's return a secret from everyone, including the cast, until a week or so ago.

Soap actors are hired to act under an enoumous amount of pressure. With the pace at which daytime goes, I'm surprised anyone can make sense of half of the material they get.

[detroitpiston]

Best. Post. Ever.

[cara mia]

That's not comparable. Jill's character hasn't changed that over the last few years at all. The change that affected Jill was was external (losing her "mother") but Jill was still Jill. CE's problem (apparently) was about who the hell Adam was, which is an entirely different question for an actor. If Jess Walton comes in a Monday with a new script where she seduces Chloe away from Billy because she's mad at Billy for some reason, you can be sure she would want to better understand this sudden shift in her character. TB's return did not affect anyone's acting choices except DG since Cane is the only one who kept the secret. You can't deny that's there's been a longstanding discussion from almost day one about the scattered writing for Adam. You've a situation here with an actor who needs to understand his actor because he wants to play him effectively playing a character that's been very poorly thought out and changed almost monthly. The only reason Adam has worked out at all and been kept viable to this point in Engen's performance. Now MM is taking over Adam at his real low villainous point and it appears that's how Adam will stay that way until he's presumably killed off. I'm sure MM will be great but he won't need to ask the question of who am I playing and how did I get here because Adam will already be fixed as nasty devil boy when MM starts.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

But he's playing an entirely new character that was never developed before. This should be expected. Adam doesn't have a backstory other than being Hope and Victor's son, the last we saw him, he was a child. They writers were developing the characters as they went along it seems, and Engen had to have known his character didn't have a developed personality prior to joining.

As Adam has taken a darker tone in recent months and has been using people that have treated him kindly, like Heather and Ashley, I don't think it was out of the question for him to prey on the feelings a gay character might have for him and use it for his advantage. It's a sick thing to do, but Adam's done it with others, they might have been on a non-kissing level (like Ashley), but he's done it.

And how do we know this? I've heard nothing about Engen engaging in serious meeting with TPTB about the direction of his character. It's common knowledge that people like Braeden, Bergman, and Cooper do this. I've never once heard about Engen being that interested in what they've written for him.

That's subjective. I didn't care for Engen's performance from day one, I never saw any depth or nuance in his acting. The acting was as bad as the character's writing. As mentioned in the Y&R discussion thread, he couldn't cry or do emotional scenes to save his life.

Again, we don't know this. Adam's been written like a villian for months, or else he wouldn't be gaslighting Ashley or using Heather to get what he wants.

Some actors relish the challenge of creating a character in their own mind and don't need TPTB's help to map it out for them. I know many of my friends who are actors like to use their personal interpretation skills in whatever role they play, no matter how poorly defined that character may be. If Engen had an opposite approach fine, but Adam had very little integrity as a character long before teaming up with Jack during that whole forged diary situation. But again, we have no confirmation Engen was that involved in the development of Adam.

[cara mia]

If Branco is accurate, then yes Engen has been meeting with TPTB about his character.

It's not a question of Adam's integrity it's a question of Adam's motivations. Many many actors ask their directors to help them with that question. That's not at all unusual or atypical.

We're just going to disagree because you don't like CE's performance and I think he's a terrific actor, so I'm willing to cut him some slack if he's a whiny bitch who needs to talk everything through in order to make his performances work. I'll be honest, if Clementine Ford has the same process, I would roll my eyes, because I think she sucks.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Branco seems to insinuate that he's been in meetings fairly recently, especially over this kiss debacle. But Adam took a dark and shady turn a year or so ago. He wasn't a defined character, and Engen doesn't have the clout of an Eric Braeden to demand anything from TPTB.

Many also don't and just have to sell the material they're given, just like that. Face it, the soap genre is a ridiculous medium, you have to be able to sell what you've given, and do it fast. Adam had long had a tendency to do reckless things and taking advantage of others, so I personally never thought using a gay character that might have feelings for him was below him in any way. Adam's done worse.

I agree, it's all subjective.