Every show needs plot, but not plot for plot sake. Especially since they haven't given us any indication that Mac was ever in love while she was away or that she's been happy in recent years. If they spring this on us a few days before Raul's "surprise" visit, it will look like an even bigger convoluted joke.

And this show severely lacks any romance. They're not using Raul and Mac was a point of romantic emphasis, they're using it as a plot point against Billy's lust for Mac.

Mac's been on for 3 days. And she has been VERY defended. So who knows what has been going on? Again, I'm willing to see how this plays out before I judge.

And, yet, much much better than what we're getting now!

The show was in top form up until 2001.... Alden had her faults, certainly, but it was good soap, with subtext, great storylines, and most importantly: EMOTION.

No, nothing wrong with plot-driven. You see, MELROSE PLACE was plot driven, too. But that is not what Y&R is about and, even if that changes, then the goodness will soon end. Plot-driven shows cannot be sustained for long, without crumbling. And plot-driven shows do not need to be imbalanced, fast-paced and illogical.

Well, I agree with that part. But if you look at the ratings, she damn near killed the show. A huge rate of decline. (The only faster rate of decline was when MAB started, with JG).

Oh, Mark.... Victor & Sabrina and Cane & Lily have no life, no passion, no chemistry and no reason for existence. They are not well-received because they're bad. Katherine and Murphy are the closest thing to romance and that's because everyone is looking at their ages and going: "Aaaaaaaaaaw." Where are the hidden glances, the anxiety of whether he'll see her again, the subtle touches, the "innocent" flirting. Mark, they have NEVER written stuff like that.

Yes, of course you're right.

For me, the best recent romance was JT/Colleen (Luckinbill/Fonseca). I adored them. But I also liked Amber/Daniel...so I'm open to "non-traditional" romances.

Oh, Mark.... Victor & Sabrina and Cane & Lily have no life, no passion, no chemistry and no reason for existence. They are not well-received because they're bad. Katherine and Murphy are the closest thing to romance and that's because everyone is looking at their ages and going: "Aaaaaaaaaaw." Where are the hidden glances, the anxiety of whether he'll see her again, the subtle touches, the "innocent" flirting. Mark, they have NEVER written stuff like that.

Interesting points. I somewhat agree - the fairytale romances (Sabrina/Victor, Cane/Lily) seem to strike a bad chord in a lot of people. i liked/like both of the couples cause I like fairytales. Big "aww wouldn't that be wonderful" romances. They seem determined to kill any spark of trueness with Adam and Heather. There's no depth. On the other hand, i thoroughly enjoy Nikki and Victor. Cause even when they're apart - and I'm not saying they should be back together - there's always these glimmers of "Wow! They still love each other after everything that's happened". That's true, that's romantic in a real-world sort of way.

Well, I agree with that part. But if you look at the ratings, she damn near killed the show. A huge rate of decline. (The only faster rate of decline was when MAB started, with JG).

But what do the ratings have to do with the quality of the show? Is that your reasoning for not liking the show since back then? You said it yourself, the show was good 3-4 years into Alden's run. When William Bell was writing, the show was in decline too, wasn't it? I seem to recall one of those charts that showed that, ever since 94 or so, the show was on steady decline. Plus, I am under the impression that daytime in general started getting huge ratings declines from 2000 on...

For me, the best recent romance was JT/Colleen (Luckinbill/Fonseca). I adored them. But I also liked Amber/Daniel...so I'm open to "non-traditional" romances.

I like both of those couples. But JT/Colleen have more heart and emotion than Amber/Daniel will ever have....

Edited May 14, 200916 yr by YRBB

Mac's been on for 3 days. And she has been VERY defended. So who knows what has been going on? Again, I'm willing to see how this plays out before I judge.

Well, I agree with that part. But if you look at the ratings, she damn near killed the show. A huge rate of decline. (The only faster rate of decline was when MAB started, with JG).

Yes, of course you're right.

For me, the best recent romance was JT/Colleen (Luckinbill/Fonseca). I adored them. But I also liked Amber/Daniel...so I'm open to "non-traditional" romances.

JT and Colleen were good but weren't the last well written romance. Have to step in for Michael and Lauren under Jack Smith before the Sheila return. They had a slow build, the hidden glances, subtle touches, flirting and they made sense that they would find each other at this point in their lives. That's when they were written fun, smart and sexy. Now they are only parental units to a family we never see and proppers of Gloria and Kevin when they are used and bot allowed to be romantic.

But what do the ratings have to do with the quality of the show? Is that your reasoning for not liking the show since back then? You said it yourself, the show was good 3-4 years into Alden's run. When William Bell was writing, the show was in decline too, wasn't it? I seem to recall one of those charts that showed that, ever since 94 or so, the show was on steady decline. Plus, I am under the impression that daytime in general started getting huge ratings declines from 2000 on...

I like both of those couples. But JT/Colleen have more heart and emotion than Amber/Daniel will ever have....

Oh. CBS daytime as a whole has actually enjoyed linear ratings decline since the 1960s.

My point about the ratings is that, though we agree that early Alden was good, the show was tanking ratings wise. (During that period, Y&R's decline was faster than it had been before or since, and exceeded the rate of decline of some other shows). So, no wonder there was interference that messed up her storytelling.

And, yes, I very much miss JT/Colleen. I never understood why they brought in that record agent, broke up JT/Colleen, fired Fonseca...and that was it.

Interesting points. I somewhat agree - the fairytale romances (Sabrina/Victor, Cane/Lily) seem to strike a bad chord in a lot of people. i liked/like both of the couples cause I like fairytales. Big "aww wouldn't that be wonderful" romances. They seem determined to kill any spark of trueness with Adam and Heather. There's no depth. On the other hand, i thoroughly enjoy Nikki and Victor. Cause even when they're apart - and I'm not saying they should be back together - there's always these glimmers of "Wow! They still love each other after everything that's happened". That's true, that's romantic in a real-world sort of way.

I used to love Nikki and Victor, and I do see the connection but wonder about the love. They seem to have some co-dependency but the love is hard to see after Victor wished she was dead, treated Sabrina like the first time he found true love, and treated Nikki miserably these past couple years. I couldn't get past the way he looked at her with such disdain. In the past, when they were separated you still so the love, but not during this past break up.

Edited May 14, 200916 yr by lmfan

Oh. CBS daytime as a whole has actually enjoyed linear ratings decline since the 1960s.

My point about the ratings is that, though we agree that early Alden was good, the show was tanking ratings wise. (During that period, Y&R's decline was faster than it had been before or since, and exceeded the rate of decline of some other shows). So, no wonder there was interference that messed up her storytelling.

And, yes, I very much miss JT/Colleen. I never understood why they brought in that record agent, broke up JT/Colleen, fired Fonseca...and that was it.

Fonseca would have left anyway, although wasn't her leaving blamed on some kind of miscommunication between the parties.. I liked Adrienne's Colleen but felt her Colleen strangely had more chemistry with Kevin than JT.

And, yes, I very much miss JT/Colleen. I never understood why they brought in that record agent, broke up JT/Colleen, fired Fonseca...and that was it.

I had no idea. I always thought she decided to move on.

I had no idea. I always thought she decided to move on.

Jack hosed her the same way he did Camryn.

Edited May 14, 200916 yr by DeeeDee

My point about the ratings is that, though we agree that early Alden was good, the show was tanking ratings wise. (During that period, Y&R's decline was faster than it had been before or since, and exceeded the rate of decline of some other shows). So, no wonder there was interference that messed up her storytelling.

Hmmm, I wonder if the change of writers also affected the ratings? But, yeah, there were times when Alden's Y&R was very boring... especially the individual scripts, sometimes they were mind-numbingly boring (but that's not solely Alden's fault). I don't know what to tell you.

especially the individual scripts, sometimes they were mind-numbingly boring (but that's not solely Alden's fault). I don't know what to tell you.

Well, they could be partly or even majorly her fault, since apparently, Alden never used a Script Editor and edited the scripts herself.

I also know she edits scripts for B&B, and look how well the dialogue is on that show.

Alden is not a storyteller, she just got lucky being Bill Bell's right hand woman for many years.

Edited May 14, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

But JT/Colleen have more heart and emotion than Amber/Daniel will ever have....

Yep.

Well, they could be partly her fault, since apparently, Alden never used a Script Editor and edited the scripts herself.

I also know she edits scripts for B&B, and look how well the dialogue is on that show.

Well, I feel the scripts are always partly the HW's fault because, as HW, they should be in control of the overall quality. I had no idea that Alden edited the scripts by herself... It would explain why some of them, while good, turned out to be the way they did.

Alden is not a storyteller, she just got lucky being Bill Bell's right hand woman for many years.

Oh, I agree, she is not. I think she got lucky because she had inspiration for a few years, she came up with some great plots, and being next to Bell for decades taught her a lot of things about how to write a soap--at least, the technical parts. And it was a great few years. But it wasn't sustainable. She was lucky enough to sustain it for 3-4 years... MAB's already breaking down after a good October-March. And, even that was... ah, well, you know.

Edited May 14, 200916 yr by YRBB

I used to love Nikki and Victor, and I do see the connection but wonder about the love. They seem to have some co-dependency but the love is hard to see after Victor wished she was dead, treated Sabrina like the first time he found true love, and treated Nikki miserably these past couple years. I couldn't get past the way he looked at her with such disdain. In the past, when they were separated you still so the love, but not during this past break up.

I agree the love is sick. Honestly though it's not written as completly fairytale it's sad that I enjoy these two intensely fighting or very much genuinely loving. It's intense so I don't know i I wouldn't call that love, but it is so dysfunctional and many time backwards. I don't know if I always want them together but I definitly enjoy the drama of their connection/dynamic, kind of the way I see Nick/Sharon's

I honestly loved Daniel & Lily (both versions). The whole "love on the run" thing was adorable. I also love the dysfunctional insanity that is Victor & Nikki. Any romance can work for me as long as the actors have some chemistry and we understand the attraction.

Family dynamics seem to take precedence over romance on Y&R and I like that. That's very true to life. Nick choosing to work at NE even though it hurts his marriage is an "anti-romance" move but it's a realistic move and makes me invest in Nick, and his troubled "romances", more than if Nick were written as this ideal romantic figure who always put his wife first.

JT & LF's Colleen was amazing. They were one of the big hooks for me with YR. I don't think Joleen is the end game any more and it probably shouldn't be but I would like to see a revisit of the couple at some time. JT is sort of Paul Jr. now so I don't see him being complex or interesting enough for the diva Colleen is becoming but if he is the good guy she always turns to in tough times that would be neat.

Are we still voting about the show? I honestly love it. I usually watch the episode I DVR the same day. I am on this board posting for goodness sake. If I didn't like it, I would find something else to watch.