Another World Discussion Thread

[vetsoapfan]

 

 

Walter Curtin had killed Wayne Addison, and then allowed his wife Lenore to be charged with the crime. She ended up spending Christmas in prison, while being pregnant no less, while Walter remained free at home. endlessly agonizing about how guilty he felt.

 

 

 

 

Lemay killed off Walter in a car crash, even though the executives at P&G balked at losing an actor whom the audience liked. Lemay's (logical) reply to that was, if P&G had not wanted to lose a popular actor, why had they allowed his character to be turned into a sniveling killer who would allow his pregnant wife to languish in prison for his crime?

 

Dufour did indeed end up on SFT after he left AW, and won an Emmy Award for his role on that show.

 

 

 

 

Over the years I have encountered many younger soap fans who have accepted Lemay's criticisms of Courtney as valid, even though they had never watched the show while he was writing it or she was acting on it. Folks have told me what an awful actress she supposedly was, even though *I* was the only one in the conversations who had actually witnessed her work every single day for a decade. Had you ever seen any clips of Courtney on AW before you read Lemay's book? I'm curious. And did your opinion of her talent change after you saw some of her work?

 

 

 

 

Lemay, brilliant a writer as he was, often belittled people whom he  chose to dislike. His comments could be quite petulant and churlish, and often hypocritical. He acted as if he could read actors' minds, and then gave them absurd negative motivations of his own creation, which he could complain about.

[zanereed]

Lemay's take on the situation with Walter Curtin is certainly one thing I'll agree with him on. Why TPTB at that time thought it was a good idea for Walter to murder Wayne and then let Lenore rot in prison without any serious repercussions boggles my mind. There really was no way out of that situation other than either: A. killing Walter off, or B. convicting Walter and sending him to prison. The first option was the easier of the two.

[DRW50]

 

Between this and dragging out the story of Caroline poisoning Pat (wasn't one of the reasons because Caroline was popular with some viewers?), I wonder if the writers/producers at the time were starting the amorality-doesn't-have-to-be-so-bad kick that soaps would really dive into about 20 years later. 

[DRW50]

 

I probably did take it a bit too much as fact, as it was the only insight I had into that era. I was somewhat skeptical just because he also said Robin Strasser was a bad actress, - to me, while Strasser can be very hammy and one-note, she's also capable of superb performances. 

 

When I actually saw the brief clips of Courtney available (for a long time the one I most remembered was the "smile" one when Steve went to prison, which was a bit cheesy), it did change my opinion - I think what most changed it was when I got to see the material around the time she was having a breakdown and attacked Rachel after Rachel visited to taunt her. Lemay had gone on about how bad she was and he had to cut the story short because she was incapable. Her work there to me was very strong, and she also seemed much tougher as an actress to me than I'd expected, as Lemay depicted her as a crying ingenue. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by DRW50

[zanereed]

 

Most likely. If you look at some of the other soaps during this time period ("The Guiding Light", for instance), if a major, popular character would have murdered someone, it would have been by accident (Joe Werner accidentally pushing Lee Gantry out a window, for example). But in this case, Walter strangled Wayne. It may have been a "heat of the moment" action, but the writers had Walter murder Wayne. Then, Walter does nothing to help his pregnant wife as she is convicted and put away for a crime Walter committed.

 

Perhaps if Walter had immediately confided in Lenore about his actions and lamented over what he had done, the character may have stood a chance at survival. Maybe. I don't know how the character remained popular after letting Lenore remain in prison and doing nothing.

 

I also wanted to ask you about those who Lemay did prefer, such as the first Willis Frame, John Fitzpatrick. Reading Lemay's book, he really thought Fitzpatrick was an even better actor than Reinholt, and that he was going to use Willis as a key player in Bay City, until circumstances forced a recast. I've only seen a few episodes with Fitzpatrick in the role, but I admit I wasn't exactly "WOW'd" by him (or the Willis character, in general). Maybe I didn't have enough episodes to properly have an his work. Any thoughts on Willis/Fitzpatrick, vetsoapfan?

Edited December 5, 2016 by zanereed

[DRW50]

I hadn't watched this in a while but found it again when there was a talk on another board about how many drunk scenes are badly acted. This is one of those scenes that was horrifying to me as it goes along because this is essentially the picture of an alcoholic who was a part of my life for years. 

 

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[vetsoapfan]

 

 

I agree 100%. The powers that be are often short-sighted and/or clueless about how they handle their characters, and if they truly want their players to remain viable and on the canvas, accepted and loved by the audience, then they have to make sure not to paint those characters into a corner and tarnish them beyond repair. On GH, once Luke Spencer raped Laura Baldwin, in my mind he should have had to pay the price, not be turned into the show's leading man. Regardless of how popular an actor is, if TPTB allow him to get away with the most heinous of crimes, it's immoral and destructive to the integrity of the show as a whole. 

 

 

 

 

Robert Cenedella was writing the show at the time, and he was not the best at character-driven, realistic storytelling. The men at P&G still paid lip-service to traditional moral values, but they offered their writers slightly more control over storytelling choices than they would have in later years. This was a wise move if the writers were like Henry Slesar, who understood the audience, the characters, and the shows' values well, but not such a good idea if the writers were less capable, and relied on "action," murder, and tired gimmicks to pad out their plots.

 

 

 

 

Right. Lemay wrote scenes for Alice in which she had an acute schizophrenic nervous breakdown, went berserk, and attacked Rachel physically, even throwing copper pots at her...and then condemned Courtney for being too over the top! The writer is consistent in his denigration of the actress, and he has every right to his opinion, but those of us who witnessed her work first-hand for the 11 years she was on the show can judge for ourselves how strong her performances actually were. She received many awards for her acting from  the magazines Daytime TV, Afternoon TV, and Daily TV Serials, and certainly the audience adored her.  The only time I felt her performances were not up to par was when she played the evil twin Maggie Ashley on OLTL, although the conception of and storyline choices foisted upon that character would have made it difficult for any actress to play her effectively.

 

 

 

 

Yes, an accidental death, like when Ellen accidentally killed the housekeeper way back when on ATWT, can eventually be forgiven, but deliberate murder or rape? No so much.

 

As for John Fitzpatrick, I agree with Lemay that the actor was good and could give strong performances. Was he better than Reinholt? In my opinion, no. I think Lemay's views on actors' talents, or supposed lack thereof, were largely colored by his own personal disdain. If he did not like certain performers, he lambasted them tirelessly, but if he did like or respect them, he would praise them to the sky. For me, the problem with Fitzpatrick is that he just was not particularly likable on-screen. He did not have that certain spark or charisma which would make me want to watch him. An actor can be technically adept but just not appealing, if that makes sense. Andy Robinson, as Frank Ryan on RYAN'S HOPE, is another example of this. He was a good actor, no question about it, but his version of Frank was hard to warm up to because the actor just wasn't personable.

Edited December 6, 2016 by vetsoapfan

[Soaplovers]

The one thing that stuck out anout Jacqueline Courtney was that she wasnt insipid nor timid.  She actually was fairly strong willed and sarcastic...and based on reading about the character Pre Lemay...she was pretty fiesty.  Lemay seemed to be the only writer with the need to make alice all teary eyed and weak willed.  Id say this was 9nly with Jacqueline acourtney...but when her replacement came in....the character still was acting weak.  Her 80s returns..Alice was much more confident and string willed..

[vetsoapfan]

 

I remember reading a quote in a magazine about Courtney after she had been fired from AW in 1975. The author wrote that she had never actually appreciated Courtney's strength as an actress until she saw her replacement, and only then did she realize that Courtney had been a great actress who had added depth and charisma to Alice for all those years. Even Harding Lemay admitted that Alice never regained her popularity after Courtney left the show; that Courtney had a certain star appeal which may have helped OLTL's ratings rise once she began appearing on it.

[DRW50]

 

Watching the Nixon material from around Lenore's wedding, Courtney's Alice is very brash and sarcastic and direct, as Strasser's Rachel was guarded and excessively sweet (on the surface; bitter under the surface). It's what makes the tension work. The plucky heroine seemed to be around a fair amount in these years (Leslie on GL was another in the Nixon-era material available of that show), but Courtney stood out because she was so earthy and a bit masculine, which made a contrast to the character. 

 

I think Lemay may not have appreciated her because he seemed to like actresses who were a bit more breezy - like Susan Sullivan and Beverly Penberthy. Vicky Wyndham wasn't that breezy, but she was very raw (in those years anyway), which he must have respected. Courtney was more difficult to type. 

 

I don't really get the feeling from the AW material of his I've seen (not much) that he knew what to do with heroines. 

[vetsoapfan]

 

Many of the pre-existing characters from before Lemay's reign changed quite a bit during his tenure. For the most part, I could justify the changes because they made sense psychologically. Vivacious Alice became more withdrawn and fragile, but years of tragedy and heartache can wear anyone down, so the character's alteration was understandable. Mary Matthews became fiercely overprotective of her children, but again, years of seeing her kids abused and traumatized could realistically lead a mother's claws to come out in full force. Aunt Liz went from being a screaming shrew to a lonely busybody with ultimately good (if misguided) intentions. After losing her son and alienating everyone else in her immediate family, however, I accepted her learning some very harsh lessons and mellowing out.

 

There are writers who just naturally understand, and gravitate towards, certain characters, and Lemay was much more adept at writing for the ambiguous bad boys or complicated, antagonistic anti-heroines than he was at writing for traditional "good" characters like Russ or Alice.

[DRW50]

I've probably asked this before and gotten an answer before, so my apologies, but does anyone remember what kind of changes AW went through during the 1981 writers' strike? Some shows like Search and RH were supposed to have been thrown up, down and around during the strike (although I didn't really think the RH strike material was much worse than the rest of the show by that point), but even though I know the AW episodes are around I haven't watched a lot of that period. I was wondering if any of you had. 

[zanereed]

 

Agreed. In order to have longevity for a character, the character NEEDS to change in order to reflect their life experiences. Some characters can stagnate, or revert back to their old ways, but good characters and good writing will reflect change and character evolution. Lemay's changes to the characters you mention above did make sense.

 

However, I still find it interesting that Lemay chose to embody *himself* in the character of Steve Frame. Despite his obvious issues with Reinholt, Lemay wrote his whole family and family experiences around that character. That was one change that Reinholt never agreed with. Steve Frame was originally supposed to be an only child from the east coast. Now Steve Frame was from Oklahoma and had 12 siblings. vetsoapfan - what did you personally think of this shift in Steve's history once it started in 1971?

 

I remember watching Courtney's AW footage closely when I finally was able to view it (this was after Lemay's book was published) to see if she was looking down (for her apparent queue cards) or displaying other things that were discussed in his book. I didn't see a thing that would make his claims justified. Again, that based on limited footage available. I thought Courtney did a wonderful job as Alice from what I've seen (and heard via Eddie's audio clips as well).

 

I wish I could see more of John Fitzpatrick as Willis. From the episodes I've seen, I don't get the sense that Willis was very likable with Fitzpatrick in the role.

[vetsoapfan]

 

Steve Frame was initially presented as a young Cash McCall-type character, with no indication that he had grown up dirt-poor on a farm. When he later told Alice about his roots, I could accept it because it made valid psychological sense. He had lied about or at least hidden the true story of his origins because he was ashamed of where he came from. It was a depressing, dead-end world he was desperate to escape from, to deny. In real life, people do create elaborate backstories for themselves once they are far removed from their original, unpleasant environment. I wonder if Reinholt took exception to this redirection of his character mainly because he disliked Lemay, rather than because the writing was poor. As much as I criticize Lemay for his petulance and arrogance, and for his dismissal of beloved actors like Courtney and Dwyer, the first several years of his tenure on AW were brilliant; the stuff erudite soap fans dream about. I had no problem with Steve's revelation about being born on a farm, any more than I had a problem about the formerly-virulent Aunt Liz becoming softer and more vulnerable after fate and her own atrocious behavior led her to losing her entire family in one way or another. It made the characters richer.

 

I watched AW consistently during Courtney's first 11 years there, and while I found her a bit too overly-expressive and "bubbly" at the very beginning, I thought she grew into a very strong, impressive actress with an obvious star appeal. Heck, when she passed away, even the controversial producer Paul Rauch, who had fired her from AW to begin with, said that she had been a "great gal" who always turned in stellar performances. It's a shame that younger soap fans, who had never seen her work for themselves, seem to accept Lemay's denigrating comments as gospel. I would refute his comments very vigorously.

 

As for Willis Frame, I actually found him to become more likable when Fitzpatrick was replaced by Leon Russom. The second actor brought a layer of vulnerability and humanity to the role that had been lacking during Fitzpatrick's portrayal.

[DRW50]

Did you see Beverlee McKinsey as Emma?