Thanks for the tag, @DRW50 ! It came across my feed earlier today, but I’ve only watched the DAYS ep so far. Definitely planning to watch the rest within a day or two!

9 hours ago, MissPalmer said:

Thank you! (And thanks @DRW50 for the notification).

Iris explaining to Blaine what lawyers are for was killing.

I liked Rachel very much here. A bit shocked that Frank doesn't seem to rate a mention as even a flirtation on Rachel's AWHP character page. His minor character entry does note that he dated Rachel.

I wonder if Frank was supposed to be a longer term character?

Maybe there was some BTS stuff that went on.

9 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Looking on AWHP she doesn't even seem to have been there a month, so you're right. I suppose the 90 minute runtime means they had already exhausted story possibilities for the mother-daughter triangle in that month.

I wonder how it played out on a day to day basis. Based on what I've read, it sounds like Dennis forgot all about Elena once he met Cecile.

10 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

I wonder if Frank was supposed to be a longer term character?

Maybe there was some BTS stuff that went on.

I was watching regularly at the time. And I remember Frank's arrival seemed like it was planned to be a big deal. It appeared there was a plan for him to be a new romance for Rachel. Then, Frank was quickly written off as if he didn't matter at all. So obviously there was some sort of change of plans. Remember, this is not long after Harding Lemay left the show, and it is possible Frank was created by Lemay and left behind in his storyline projections. It is even possible the character was already cast and hired before Lemay's exit. So if Tom King (Lemay's replacement) did not care for the character, he may have written him out as soon as he could. That's one possible explanation for the abrupt change of course.

5 hours ago, AbcNbc247 said:

I wonder how it played out on a day to day basis. Based on what I've read, it sounds like Dennis forgot all about Elena once he met Cecile.

The plans for Cecile and Blaine were completely changed by the post-Lemay writers. Before he left AW, Harding Lemay was planning to re-create the Steve/Alice/Rachel triangle with Jamie/Cecile/Blaine. Jamie (young adult version) and Blaine appeared before Lemay left, and Cecile arrived just a few days after his departure. And in an interview, Lemay mentioned it took six-months to cast Cecile. So he certainly created the character and had some influence over casting. In Lemay's plan, Cecile was to be the ingenue and Blaine was to play the bad-girl (Rachel role). But later writers had Cecile and Blaine more-or-less reverse roles (I never understood why) and added Sandy to the mix which minimized Jamie's role. So the recreation of Steve/Alice/Rachel was taken off the rails by decisions made by the new writers. Cecile took-over the bitchy role and Blaine went down the Perils of Pauline path.

Edited 16 hours ago16 hr by Tisy-Lish

5 hours ago, Tisy-Lish said:

The plans for Cecile and Blaine were completely changed by the post-Lemay writers. Before he left AW, Harding Lemay was planning to re-create the Steve/Alice/Rachel triangle with Jamie/Cecile/Blaine. Jamie (young adult version) and Blaine appeared before Lemay left, and Cecile arrived just a few days after his departure. And in an interview, Lemay mentioned it took six-months to cast Cecile. So he certainly created the character and had some influence over casting. In Lemay's plan, Cecile was to be the ingenue and Blaine was to play the bad-girl (Rachel role). But later writers had Cecile and Blaine more-or-less reverse roles (I never understood why) and added Sandy to the mix which minimized Jamie's role. So the recreation of Steve/Alice/Rachel was taken off the rails by decisions made by the new writers. Cecile took-over the bitchy role and Blaine went down the Perils of Pauline path.

Thanks!

I always love finding out what a soap writer would have written had they not left or been fired from their show when they were.

1 hour ago, Tisy-Lish said:

The plans for Cecile and Blaine were completely changed by the post-Lemay writers. Before he left AW, Harding Lemay was planning to re-create the Steve/Alice/Rachel triangle with Jamie/Cecile/Blaine. Jamie (young adult version) and Blaine appeared before Lemay left, and Cecile arrived just a few days after his departure. And in an interview, Lemay mentioned it took six-months to cast Cecile. So he certainly created the character had some influence over casting. In Lemay's plan, Cecile was to be the ingenue and Blaine was to play the bad-girl (Rachel role). But later writers had Cecile and Blaine more-or-less reverse roles (I never understood why) and added Sandy to the mix which minimized Jamie's role. So the recreation of Steve/Alice/Rachel was taken off the rails by decisions made by the new writers. Cecile took-over the bitchy role and Blaine went down the Perils of Pauline path.

Thank you. I never knew that. I wonder if Lemay planned a longer Elena/Dennis affair. I've seen little of Jim Poyner's work to where I don't know if he could have pulled the story off. I did see plenty of Christina Pickles on St. Elsewhere. She was great (especially in the first 3 seasons before they lost their way with the character), but I don't know if I see her as the right choice for this type of plot. I would have hired someone like Dixie Carter (I think this is still before Dixie broke into primetime).

And then Lemay tried to bring back the Alice and Rachel feel with Vicky and Lisa. Even if he'd stayed this would have been short-lived as Joanna Going was leaving and Laurence Lau's Jamie just wasn't special.

I'd love to know what his long-term plans of Cecile/Jamie/Blaine would have been. They had the opportunity to directly contrast Jamie with Steve when Steve returned but I don't think they did.

If Lemay had a hand in casting Cecile, Jamie and Blaine, it does help explain the high caliber of acting compared to some other hires coming soon (although I don't think the casting was the problem in AW in these years, so Rauch probably had the biggest say rather than Lemay).

I wish I could see the Jamie before Bekins to see why they recast.

I doubt Lemay was watching AW after he left but I do wonder what he thought of where they took Jamie. Bekins could have been phenomenal with high-caliber writing. As it was, he still did a great job, but I can't imagine Lemay just planned for him to be what he was by the time Bekins left (essentially a thoughtful thot).

I can see why they flipped Blaine and Cecile. Susan Keith had a unique combination of frailty and brittleness and warmth and coldness (which is probably why Loving went back and forth with Shana so many times), and Laura Malone had the surface-strong-broken-underneath feel of '40s and '50s noir ladies.

I imagine Lemay would have had a longer rehabilitation for Blaine, similar to Rachel, rather than just having her brutalized.

Susan may have done well as an Alice-type figure - she never had Jacqueline Courtney's warmth, but she did have that ethereal quality.

I can't see Lemay ever bringing in Sandy either. Sandy basically took all of Jamie's stories.

3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I can't see Lemay ever bringing in Sandy either. Sandy basically took all of Jamie's stories.

I'm not sure whether Sandy detracted from Jamie in any meaningful way. Once Dennis left it made sense for there to be another young man in the Cory family that Jamie could be friends or rivals with. It's true that Sandy also married Jamie's first couple of wives but Jamie had moved on by the time Sandy got involved with Blaine, hadn't he? Jamie and Sandy could have had mild conflict or mutual support over Cory family or business or love triangle if Sandy had not been written out.

Was there ever a plan to write Sandy as gay or am I reading too much into his escort past?

30 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

Was there ever a plan to write Sandy as gay or am I reading too much into his escort past?

I think at the beginning of his storyline, TPTB planned to write Sandy as straight-ish, but willing to prostitute himself with either men or women -- anything for money. But by the time the scripts got to broadcast, all the male references had been removed, or at least severely softened.

Frankly, there was no real need to make Mac Cory's illegitimate son a prostitute at all. Being Mac Cory's illegitimate son was scandalous enough, without the escort/prostitute accouterments. Can you imagine if Iris had still been in Bay City during the Sandy reveal? Oh Lord, her reactions to an illegitimate brother would have been priceless!!

Edited 9 hours ago9 hr by Tisy-Lish

31 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

I'm not sure whether Sandy detracted from Jamie in any meaningful way. Once Dennis left it made sense for there to be another young man in the Cory family that Jamie could be friends or rivals with. It's true that Sandy also married Jamie's first couple of wives but Jamie had moved on by the time Sandy got involved with Blaine, hadn't he? Jamie and Sandy could have had mild conflict or mutual support over Cory family or business or love triangle if Sandy had not been written out.

Was there ever a plan to write Sandy as gay or am I reading too much into his escort past?

I do think in the short run he usurped Jamie's place on the canvas, which they addressed somewhat in story, but I don't think they went far enough in a real rivalry between them (as you said, Jamie had long moved on from Blaine and was disgusted by Cecile). In the long run, Sandy didn't hurt Jamie - both characters were left behind.

When I initially read about Sandy's origins I did wonder if they might have implied he was gay-for-pay, or bi, but of course in soapland male escorts never have sex with men (this continues on soaps today - most recently Neighbours).

1 minute ago, Tisy-Lish said:

I think at the beginning of his storyline, TPTB planned to write Sandy as straight-ish, but willing to prostitute himself with either men or women -- anything for money. But by the time the scripts got to broadcast, all the male references had been removed, or at least severely softened. Frankly, there was no real need to make Mac Cory's illegitimate son a prostitute at all. Being Mac Cory's illegitimate son was scandalous enough, without the escort/prostitute accouterments.

I didn't even know they implied in scripts. Not surprised to learn this was cut out.

I agree the prostitute origin wasn't needed, as Mac didn't seem to care. I guess at this time the show was trying so hard to keep that organized crime story going.

It would have been more of a twist to learn Mac had been a prostitute in his early years, to survive, and have this come out in a tell-all. Imagine Iris' reaction...

4 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I'd love to know what his long-term plans of Cecile/Jamie/Blaine would have been.

Well, I assume either Blaine or Cecile would have born Jamie's child out of wedlock with Dennis Carrington playing the Russ Matthews (or Chuck Tyler on AMC) role in the plot (and marrying the pregnant woman) -- while Jamie married the other woman. That could have led to years of romantic difficulty between Jamie and Cecile, while being constantly pestered and threatened by nasty Blaine. Just speculating here.

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by Tisy-Lish

Just now, Tisy-Lish said:

Well, I assume either Blaine or Cecile would have born Jamie's child out of wedlock with Dennis Carrington playing the Russ Matthews role in the plot (and marrying the pregnant woman) -- while Jamie married the other woman. That could have led to years of romantic difficulty between Jamie and Cecile, while being constantly pestered and threatened by nasty Blaine. Just speculating here.

I can see that happening.

Do you think Dennis would need a recast or was Jim Poyner capable of playing the material?

I guess Iris would be Mary Matthews...

9 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I can see that happening.

Do you think Dennis would need a recast or was Jim Poyner capable of playing the material?

I guess Iris would be Mary Matthews...

If Lemay had written it, I think Jim Poyner would have worked. With other writers, I'm not sure.

Regarding Iris -- I think Iris might have reacted more like Phoebe Tyler (with Little-Phillip) on AMC -- reluctantly accepting the child wasn't her biological grandson, but using her influence to try to keep him connected to her family. Mary Matthews had little social influence, so was forced to give-up Jamie as her grandchild completely.