7 hours ago, JaneAusten said:

People don't realize how much he's going to be missed.

 

I'm DVR'ing a two-part "Frontline" on PBS about the Obama presidency because I want to watch it all when I have the time to do so.  Anyway, during the few minutes I caught last night of the first part, they talked about the emergency summit that President George W. Bush held with Obama, John McCain and other Congressional folk when the banking industry went belly under.  (If you'll recall, that was during the time when McCain temporarily suspended his presidential campaign in order to deal with the crisis.)

 

According to one of the persons interviewed for the documentary, at a particular moment during the highly charged meeting between the Democrats and Republicans, as McCain crumbled under the pressure and Obama essentially commandeered the proceedings over even Dubya, Bush reportedly turned to Nancy Pelosi, who was sitting on his right, and whispered, "You're gonna miss me."  Shortly thereafter, Bush got up from his seat and walked out of the meeting, leaving the two sides to continue battling over whether or not to approve the $700 million bailout act.

 

In a way, I see what Dubya was talking about.  The guy was as intellectually incurious (tm Linda Ronstadt) as my ass is big, but for the Republicans, he really was like the catcher in the rye, keeping the party from going over the cliff.  And now with him AND Obama out of office, the country is about to witness just how dangerous the GOP can be.

Biden might well have won, I don't know. There is a piece in the Times, I think, about him saying he wished he had spent more time in the Rust Belt for Hillary, that he blames himself. Joe Biden's a great man.

 

But the fact is - IMO, anyway - that Hillary Clinton, despite the ingrained hatred and prejudice against her in the press and segments of the public going back 25 years, was insanely qualified and deserved to be President on every level. She will be a martyr for women for generations to come now, and you can bet that someday, if we survive this, and a woman does become President, she will name-check Hillary Clinton and I will cry my eyes out.

 

And part of me does ask myself whether we really deserved better, when that squishy, apathetic, uncurious and/or racially anxious middle America couldn't look at these two choices - between an incredibly competent and professional woman and a childlike narcissist who can't stop tweeting (even today, Trump voters are decrying his tweets while trying to convince themselves he didn't mean the things they didn't like but did mean the things they did) - and still had to pick the man just because the woman is - by definition and stereotype and caricature going back almost thirty years - a bitch for saying she didn't want to bake cookies. What would we have proven if we'd run Biden? That we can still elect the right white guy?

 

Edited January 19, 20178 yr by Vee

3 minutes ago, Vee said:

Biden might well have won, I don't know. There is a piece in the Times, I think, about him saying he wished he had spent more time in the Rust Belt for Hillary, that he blames himself. Joe Biden's a great man.

 

But the fact is - IMO, anyway - that Hillary Clinton, despite her own flaws and despite the ingrained hatred and prejudice against her in the press and segments of the public going back 25 years, was a dedicated public servant, insanely qualified and deserved to be President on every level. She will be a martyr for women for generations to come now.

 

And part of me does ask myself whether we really deserved better, when that squishy, apathetic, uncurious and/or racially anxious middle America couldn't look at these two choices - between an incredibly competent and professional woman and a childlike narcissist who can't stop tweeting (even today, Trump voters are decrying his tweets while trying to convince themselves he didn't mean the things they didn't like but did mean the things they did) - and still had to pick the man just because the woman is - by definition and stereotype and caricature going back almost thirty years - a bitch for saying she didn't want to bake cookies. What would we have proven if we'd run Biden? That we can still elect the right white guy?

 

 

I think in this particular case, and this particular female candidate, sexism was a part of it, a big part obviously, but there was also a tin-eared nature and an insincerity that she couldn't shake, against a candidate who was inferior in every way, but was better at selling BS. Biden always managed to seem sincere and was able to form a connection with voters. I don't think Hillary really could. It shouldn't have mattered, but this was one of those elections where it did. 

 

(with that said, I think if the election had been more about building a positive image of Hillary and less about how awful Trump is and assuming that the average voter would flock to the polls solely out of revulsion toward Trump, she still could have won) 

8 hours ago, dragonflies said:

Obama is my 2nd favorite President. Secondly on to Abraham Lincoln

 

You know which president I have come to admire?  Theodore Roosevelt.  To me, he was like Donald Trump, only with common sense.

5 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

 

I think in this particular case, and this particular female candidate, sexism was a part of it, a big part obviously, but there was also a tin-eared nature and an insincerity that she couldn't shake, against a candidate who was inferior in every way, but was better at selling BS. Biden always managed to seem sincere and was able to form a connection with voters. I don't think Hillary really could. It shouldn't have mattered, but this was one of those elections where it did. 

 

(with that said, I think if the election had been more about building a positive image of Hillary and less about how awful Trump is and assuming that the average voter would flock to the polls solely out of revulsion toward Trump, she still could have won) 

 

I think they put a lot out there about her, more than she's given credit for. And we hear a lot about her when she's one on one with people in appearances, rallies, etc. vs. being scripted. But they still could've done more. And the fatal flaw was taking certain Democratic strongholds and the Rust Belt for granted, and that was tin-eared.

There was a piece about this months ago, but I don't think the problem with Hillary is that she's insincere - the problem is she's had to put on a 'perfect' public face since the early '90s, when she was savaged for speaking her mind and talking from the heart. Since then she's had to retreat into being a calculated version of herself to get things done. That's not all her fault. In a lot of parts of the country and in a lot of circles in the press, Hillary Clinton has never been able to win for losing simply because she is a woman with a brain and power.

Edited January 19, 20178 yr by Vee

8 hours ago, Roman said:

Trump and Republicans....insults to the walking dead. and they are going to call it something else and take credit for it...that's all republicans do. and the stupid folks who vote for them act like they can't realize that...because "HE'LL BUILD A WALL TO KEEP THE ILLEGALS OUT!!" stupid asses....

 

It's like what Obama told David Remnick: take his name off whatever legislation he wants passed, and ninety percent of the Republicans will vote for it.

3 hours ago, marceline said:

 

Same here. He gave this country everything and we spit in his face. Look at what his biggest "mistake" was: trying to make sure everyone in America had access to health care. But the one I still can't stand to look at because of the shame it makes me feel is Michelle. She deserved so much better than she got. Obama said it best: she took a job she didn't ask for and did it with style, grace and kindness and in return she and her children were called monkeys.

 

No, Obama's biggest "mistake" was being Black.  [/DeeeDee]

3 minutes ago, Vee said:

 

I think they put a lot out there about her, more than she's given credit for. But they still could've done more. And the fatal flaw was taking certain Democratic strongholds and the Rust Belt for granted, and that was tin-eared.

There was a piece about this months ago, but I don't think the problem with Hillary is that she's insincere - the problem is she's had to put on a 'perfect' public face since the early '90s, when she was savaged for speaking her mind and talking from the heart. Since then she's had to retreat into being a calculated version of herself to get things done. That's not all her fault. In a lot of parts of the country and in a lot of circles in the press, Hillary Clinton has never been able to win for losing simply because she is a woman with a brain and power.

Amen

 

I read something today - someone commenting about how they didn't like her from day 1. And you have to wonder why. For all the "genuineness and realness" people wanted her to project, when she did that early on she was massacred. I remember how she was slammed for the cookie baking comment, the Stand by you Man comments, etc. And by the way I still love that Hillary best. The brazen, outspoken, tell it like it is person. Except people didn't like that Hillary. Even as first lady she was made to retreat to be more "first ladyish". Ever since then, while I still believe in her sincerity in wanting to serve and help people, we never saw the real Hillary, the one I loved early on and the permanent mask went up. I also do believe when Bill spoke at the DNC about her and her life, career, family, all she's done, it was the very first time many people saw that part of her. I honestly don't believe other than listening to Bill and spending that needed time in the rust belt, there was anything they could have done differently that would have mattered. And yes I do believe her gender was the biggest factor because face it, people still expect perfection from women where men can screw up, be grossly incompetent, and somehow they are still qualified(looking at you GWB and incoming Agent Orange).

1 minute ago, JaneAusten said:

Amen

 

I read something today - someone commenting about how they didn't like her from day 1. And you have to wonder why. For all the "genuineness and realness" people wanted her to project, when she did that early on she was massacred. I remember how she was slammed for the cookie baking comment, the Stand by you Man comments, etc. And by the way I still love that Hillary best. The brazen, outspoken, tell it like it is person. Except people didn't like that Hillary. Even as first lady she was made to retreat to be more "first ladyish". Ever since then, while I still believe in her sincerity in wanting to serve and help people, we never saw the real Hillary, the one I loved early on and the permanent mask went up. I also do believe when Bill spoke at the DNC about her and her life, career, family, all she's done, it was the very first time many people saw that part of her. I honestly don't believe other than listening to Bill and spending that needed time in the rust belt, there was anything they could have done differently that would have mattered. And yes I do believe her gender was the biggest factor because face it, people still expect perfection from women where men can screw up, be grossly incompetent, and somehow they are still qualified(looking at you GWB and incoming Agent Orange).

 

I think one of the things that hurt her was that I'm not even sure the woman in those interviews was the real Hillary. That was a woman who was pushed into overdrive because she had to ignore her own voice to defend her husband over his sleazy behavior. That's what some of her friends and handlers said in a long article last year about the impact of that 60 Minutes interview. She damaged herself for Bill, and  then the mold stuck. 

I think you can see the real Hillary when she talks to people one on one. Most of that doesn't end up on TV, or is caught by accident. I don't think it's that far removed from the Hillary we see in the public eye, but speeches have never been her forte. I just don't think there's that intense a divide. I don't think people have ever given her humanity enough credit. She wouldn't be just a wife, so people decided to make her into a thing.

Edited January 19, 20178 yr by Vee

1 minute ago, Vee said:

I think you can see the real Hillary when she talks to people one on one. Most of that doesn't end up on TV, or is caught by accident. I don't think it's that far removed from the Hillary we see in the public eye, but speeches have never been her forte. I just don't think there's that intense a divide. I don't think people have ever given her humanity enough credit. She wouldn't be just a wife, so people decided to make her into a thing.

 

I don't think her inner circle ever helped much either. I was reading some Daily Beast article about Hillaryland people and what they will be doing now that their sure thing jobs are long gone, and one of her communications people was talking about how she is free and is liberated and she was quoting Shawn Colvin lyrics. I couldn't help thinking, "How nice for you...too bad about the rest of us." 

46 minutes ago, Vee said:

What would we have proven if we'd run Biden? That we can still elect the right white guy?

 

Exactly.  Obama's legacy is at stake, so of course, let's bring in the White guy to save it.  That would leave such a bitter taste in so many people's mouths.

 

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: remove the Secretary of State tenure, including the Damn Emails and BENGHAZI!!, and you'd still have a candidate (Hillary Clinton) with baggage, but nothing the Clintons, either together or separately, haven't overcome before.  Hillary never -- NEVER -- should have accepted that job.  (Look at what it's done for John Kerry.  That's right, it's done nothing.)

 

You know, Americans should have been used to a wife wanting to be more than a wife.  Isn't that the basic premise of "I Love Lucy"?

 

Edited January 19, 20178 yr by Khan

33 minutes ago, Khan said:

 

You know which president I have come to admire?  Theodore Roosevelt.  To me, he was like Donald Trump, only with common sense.

NOOOOOOOOO!!

 

Ok just kidding. Well not completely. I can see how the comparison could be made. TR was blustering with a larger than life presence and in his own way, craved to be the center of attention. But he didn't have to crave it. He just was. But that's where it ends. He was intelligent, adventurous, a brilliant student at Harvard, and brimming with intellectual curiosity. He was also a trail blazer in many ways and became the perfect president to lead this country at the turn of the century. I don't know that I would call him a populist though. And he was very much responsible for putting the United States onto the world stage. He basically ended isolationism. That's kind of the opposite of our incoming Fuhrer Agent Orange.

4 minutes ago, Khan said:

 

Exactly.  Obama's legacy is at stake, so of course, let's bring in the White guy to save it.  That would leave such a bitter taste in so many people's mouths.

 

It wouldn't really be bringing in someone though, as he was a well-liked VP and friendly with Obama. It wouldn't have been like when people tried to parachute Wes Clark in because they hated Howard Dean.

7 minutes ago, Khan said:

 

Exactly.  Obama's legacy is at stake, so of course, let's bring in the White guy to save it.  That would leave such a bitter taste in so many people's mouths.

 

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: remove the Secretary of State tenure, including the Damn Emails and BENGHAZI!!, and you'd still have a candidate (Hillary Clinton) with baggage, but nothing the Clintons, either together or separately, haven't overcome before.  Hillary never -- NEVER -- should have accepted that job.  (Look at what it's done for John Kerry.  That's right, it's done nothing.)

 

You know, Americans should have been used to a wife wanting to be more than a wife.  Isn't that the basic premise of "I Love Lucy"?

 

Stories from my grandparents, Eleanor Roosevelt was crucified when she was first lady. For many people she could never do anything right, but a lot of what she did, was because her husband couldn't do it. People never knew at the time why and FDR himself used to joke about his "missus" being on another one of her trips away when talking to the press. So she took the hits for him at that time. She was also his conscience in some ways. Now we can look back and read about her and see what a remarkable woman and trailblazer she was. Back then not so much. Hopefully history will be kinder to Hillary Clinton also.

1 hour ago, Vee said:

There was a piece about this months ago, but I don't think the problem with Hillary is that she's insincere - the problem is she's had to put on a 'perfect' public face since the early '90s, when she was savaged for speaking her mind and talking from the heart. Since then she's had to retreat into being a calculated version of herself to get things done. That's not all her fault. In a lot of parts of the country and in a lot of circles in the press, Hillary Clinton has never been able to win for losing simply because she is a woman with a brain and power.

 

ICAM.  In fact, I've often said the same thing myself.  I would have voted for Hillary Clinton in a second.  Hillary RODHAM Clinton?  Not so much.

35 minutes ago, JaneAusten said:

Stories from my grandparents, Eleanor Roosevelt was crucified when she was first lady. For many people she could never do anything right, but a lot of what she did, was because her husband couldn't do it. People never knew at the time why and FDR himself used to joke about his "missus" being on another one of her trips away when talking to the press. So she took the hits for him at that time. She was also his conscience in some ways. Now we can look back and read about her and see what a remarkable woman and trailblazer she was. Back then not so much.

 

Believe it or not, I learned that the first time I watched "The Way We Were."

1 hour ago, JaneAusten said:

For all the "genuineness and realness" people wanted her to project, when she did that early on she was massacred. I remember how she was slammed for the cookie baking comment, the Stand by you Man comments, etc. And by the way I still love that Hillary best. The brazen, outspoken, tell it like it is person. Except people didn't like that Hillary. Even as first lady she was made to retreat to be more "first ladyish". Ever since then, while I still believe in her sincerity in wanting to serve and help people, we never saw the real Hillary, the one I loved early on and the permanent mask went up.

 

Seriously, do you people read my FB page?

Edited January 19, 20178 yr by Khan