I'm kinda with y'all on this one: it sucks that those eight Democrats broke ranks with the rest of the party in order to end the government shutdown, but there really wasn't much else they could do.  I applaud their efforts to protect what's left of the ACA, but we might as well admit now that Obamacare is well on its' way to becoming history.  Not only does the GOP wield all the power now (and probably will for generations to come), but they truly believe they are acting in accordance with their creator and that history will prove them to be right; and if I know anything at all about people, it's that you can't ever reason with those who believe they have God and history on their side.

One thing people seem to be overlooking is that no matter what the Senate passed, it will need to go back to the House and Mike Johnson has no intention of doing that so nothing changes yet.

True, but the fact remains: eight Democrats caved to the GOP; and rightly or wrongly, other Democrats feel extremely betrayed by that action.  At a time when the party needed to prove its' resilience, it proved instead just how weak it actually is.

God, I miss the days when Bill and Hillary were calling the shots for my party.

Edited November 10Nov 10 by Khan

1 hour ago, Khan said:

True, but the fact remains: eight Democrats caved to the GOP; and rightly or wrongly, other Democrats feel extremely betrayed by that action.  At a time when the party needed to prove its' resilience, it proved instead just how weak it actually is.

God, I miss the days when Bill and Hillary were calling the shots for my party.

I don't think they caved. Did people think that the government could stay shut down forever? How many people have to sit in food lines for hours? Or were people hoping that we get a few plane crashes between now and Christmas? What exactly would be the better outcome?

This shutdown is now firmly in the lap of the GOP. Or at least it would be if people could stop beating up on Dems. Every day we stay shut down is because Mike Johnson won't bring the House back into session.

Edited November 10Nov 10 by marceline

And in another bit of shocking news (but in sort of a miraculous good way - I know, so rare!), SCOTUS has denied Kim Davis' (you know, the Christian married multiple times to three different men that denied gay couples marriage licenses because of her belief in the "sanctity of marriage"!) request to abolish same-sex marriage.

Early Christmas miracle? Whatever it is, I'm stunned - this time - that SCOTUS did the right thing.

Edited November 11Nov 11 by Wendy

8 hours ago, marceline said:

I don't think they caved. Did people think that the government could stay shut down forever? How many people have to sit in food lines for hours? Or were people hoping that we get a few plane crashes between now and Christmas? What exactly would be the better outcome?

This shutdown is now firmly in the lap of the GOP. Or at least it would be if people could stop beating up on Dems. Every day we stay shut down is because Mike Johnson won't bring the House back into session.

I certainly didn't think the government was going to be shut down forever, at least I hope not, unless that was the Republican Party's plan to completely destroy the economy by keeping the government shut down indefinitely. But unfortunately, I don't really see people blaming the Republicans, only the Democrats. Either way, the party needs to undergo some major changes. 

11 hours ago, marceline said:

What exactly would be the better outcome?

For me, the better outcome would have been the opposite of what has happened, with the GOP finally agreeing to extend or lower the ACA subsidies, along with restoring full SNAP and WIC benefits and allowing federal employees to return to work, rather than the other way around.  At the end of the day, however, I'm a realist.  I know the GOP will never budge on that issue, because they will stop at nothing to kill the ACA and bury Barack Obama's legacy.  Even if it means allowing thousands, if not millions, of tax-paying, law-abiding citizens to die to do it.

So, am I being unfair to the Democrats in saying they "caved" to the GOP?  Probably.  After all, I don't doubt that they were stuck between a proverbial rock and hard place.  Just as I don't doubt that the House - and Speaker Johnson in particular - will look even more heartless if and when they refuse to bring the Senate deal to a vote and/or vote not to pass it.  Regardless, though, I do believe the Democrats are being terribly naive if they believe the GOP will hold to their faint promise of reviewing the issue of extending the ACA subsidies again down the road.  It's like Gretchen Weiners trying to make fetch happen; it's not gonna happen.  And when it doesn't happen, I worry that the Democrats will look even more like Boo Boo the Fool* in the end.

1 hour ago, MissPhoenixGirl92 said:

But unfortunately, I don't really see people blaming the Republicans, only the Democrats. Either way, the party needs to undergo some major changes. 

Frankly, I'm at the point where I think the more reasonable Democrats - y'know, the ones who don't openly hate Blacks and Jews, whom the far-left would call "centrists" or "moderates" the same way we'd call the GOP "fascists" - would do well to let the (Socialist) Democrats have the party and start their own, third party.  No doubt, if the far-left had full control of the Democratic Party, it'd collapse in no time under the crushing weight of own basic incompetence and bigotry.  But maybe that's for the best.

(*Thanks, @Vee, for that lovely name, I've been using it ever since I saw it your post-Election Day post, lol).

Edited November 11Nov 11 by Khan

Another thing, too, is something Dan Rather touched upon in a Substack e-mail: Most US presidents are motivated to get the government going so as to not let Americans suffer.

But Trump is NOT a normal POTUS. He THRIVES on hurting others. He's HAPPY to make people suffer. So there would be absolutely no sense of urgency from him to reopen as long as his enemies feel the hurt.

If politics were perfect, yeah...I'd be all for keeping the government closed. But with the hand this country dealt itself - thanks to low-info and/or selfish voters - there's really no winning.

The only question, once it opens back up, is how long Johnson will try to not seat the Arizona House member who is #218 in order to release the Epstein files. That's still in play, and I bet that IS one thing that scares Donnie schittless.

5 hours ago, Wendy said:

And in another bid of shocking news (but in sort of a miraculous good way - I know, so rare!), SCOTUS has denied Kim Davis' (you know, the Christian married multiple times to three different men that denied gay couples marriage licenses because of her belief in the "sanctity of marriage"!) request to abolish same-sex marriage.

Early Christmas miracle? Whatever it is, I'm stunned - this time - that SCOTUS did the right thing.

9 hours ago, MissPhoenixGirl92 said:

Yeah, this is horrible, but the Democrats are definitely in a no win situation. It was either lose healthcare for millions of Americans or just let people go hungry. And there was no guarantee that the Republicans were ever going to budge on extending the ACA subsidies anyway. But yeah this definitely made the Democrats look weak and now they may have possibly screwed up their chances on winning the midterms. Not that I ever thought the Democrats had a chance in hell on winning the midterms anyway. 

I don't believe this will affect midterm votes. What affects them is the media supports Republicans, the GOP rigs and suppresses votes, and much of the public are full of bigotry and cruelty, more interested in the people they don't like suffering and dying than anything that benefits them.

A vast majority were blaming Republicans for the shutdown. The polling and public opinion bore that out.

Avoiding immediate harm to the public, and prioritizing that relief, is all well and good in a normal political environment. We are not in that environment anymore, and many are too slow to learn and accept that lesson. Most Democrats came to Washington to govern and legislate responsibly. Again, wonderful in a normal political environment. But we are not in that anymore. You cannot hope to merely responsibly legislate and govern your way out of a fascist state with a corrupt SCOTUS and White House calling the plays. That is a losing game. You have to change how you operate. The Republicans chose this after we elected a Black man and it was effective for them and their bigotry.

If the public does not feel the consequences of electing Republicans they don't learn, and will forget. They learn by seeing it and feeling it at home. Not by Democrats dependably bailing out Republicans from the consequences of their actions. If a bully knows he can roll you and you'll grudgingly bend to his demands for the sake of the greater good, he'll do it every time. I've accepted that Democratic trade-off many times before, for as long as I've been voting. I'm not doing it anymore because we're not in that world now. And for what it's worth, the people who will pay first include myself at present, given my current health circumstances and the socioeconomic circumstances of millions of others.

The party does need to change. It has needed it for a long time, starting with investing in real new media platforms as opposed to going hat in hand to the networks and assuming mainstream network outlets will treat Democrats fairly. They despise us. They have destroyed Joe Biden's legacy for a generation, a man who gave his life and family to service. The right has wired media for their own ends for at least 30 years. Hoping for fair treatment, hoping 'the right people will get it if we just govern' doesn't work.

That's not all the party needs to change. There's a lot more. That doesn't mean leaving the future to the red/brown, alt right-adjacent dirtbag left. But it does mean changing what got us to Sunday. Even old hands like my mother, who spent her life serving this country on Capitol Hill, in the building these terrorists raided and got away with it because we turned the page too quickly, are disgusted. That's all I have to say about that in here for now and I'm not returning to it.

Edited November 11Nov 11 by Vee

I can't stop laughing at how triggered Musk is by what Joyce Carol Oates said about him. He's been spiraling and posting stuff about her. And trying to engage with film posts. Acting like a child who got offended by the truth.😂 She's 87 btw... and her mind is sharp like a scalpel. STAY triggered, bitch.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joyce-carol-oates-elon-musk-twitter-x_n_69128bbee4b0f8fc6ee3be50

 

7 hours ago, Vee said:

But it does mean changing what got us to Sunday.

What about what got us to last Tuesday? Or am I the only one who remembers Dems kicking GOP ass last week?

5 hours ago, marceline said:

What about what got us to last Tuesday? Or am I the only one who remembers Dems kicking GOP ass last week?

Frankly, I don't look at last Tuesday's election results as proof that the proverbial tide has turned or is turning for the Democrats.  I know some in the media (begrudgingly) want to say that it is turning for the Democrats, but I think we all have been down this road enough times to know better. 

Now, if the next 2-3 election cycles result in even more major losses for the Republicans....

44 minutes ago, Khan said:

Frankly, I don't look at last Tuesday's election results as proof that the proverbial tide has turned or is turning for the Democrats.

I think the tide has turned in some ways. The problem is dragging a lot of the party machinery along with it when a lot of them simply want to sit back, cruise to next November and do as little as possible and expect reward for being the minority party. (A common feature in the Senate across party lines for decades, I will grant you.)

I credit the base and an assortment of good candidates with last Tuesday. The enthusiasm and dedication are there among the Democratic base and rank and file, despite every end of the far political spectrum and the media shítting on 'the libs' and 'wine moms' for a decade. Between Tuesday and No Kings protests, you had many of those shítheels acknowledging the supposed 'cringelibs' were getting it done.

I credit a lot of the ossified elements of the party leadership and the Senate with Sunday, which turned around and shít on that energy and dedication. They then still expect all us to once again 'move forward,' turn the page and still be good little voters who will give more money and time to these groups who spam our inboxes and not complain about bigger matters or demand better action. I have held my nose and gone along with that thinking for over 25 years, and I'm done. And there's a lot of normie Dems who feel that way, who voted last Tuesday, who are out on those streets, who donate and organize.

Two different elements of the party, and one has to change or go.

Edited November 12Nov 12 by Vee