The Politics Thread

[Max]

Jane, I put the word "lie" in quotation marks (in my above post) because I honestly have no idea whether he knew that the ACA would result in the cancellations of insurance plans. But, many liberals became absolutely hysterical when no WMD were found, despite Bush giving his word otherwise. It has never been conclusively proven that Bush doctored the intelligence and intentionally misled the people (so we didn't always know that the WMD "nonsense" was false); in fact, Tony Blair's own intelligence told him that Hussein that WMD. Regardless, if we go by the liberal standard that says a "lie" occurs when a president says something that turns out to be false (regardless of his intention), then President Obama "lied."

I am not so sure that the law as written does allow all people who have polices in place to keep them, because I am going to lose my Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield NJ insurance (which I had prior to the passage of the ACA). The problem is that the ACA is a whopping 2,700 pages, so no one person fully understands it. While it would have been nice to have had a more thorough look at the ACA back in 2009 and 2010, Nancy Pelosi advised the Congress to pass the ACA first, and find out what was in it later:

http://reason.com/blog/2010/03/09/nancy-pelosi-on-health-care-we

I agree with the points that you are making, Wales, especially with the fact that Obama was once a liberal idealist. But even if I were a progressive, I would have been reluctant to support Obama in 2008 because of his terrible inexperience. Changing Washington is so difficult for anyone, especially for somebody who has only spent one term in the Senate.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Max

[Max]

McAuliffe did succeed in getting the DNC out of debt, but Democrats did poorly in the 02 & 04 elections, and liberal morale was very low.

DRW, Cuccinelli is totally crazy on the gay issues, but I still don't believe that he would discriminate against gays, because that would hurt his popularity too much in a purple state, which in turn would cripple the rest of his agenda. It would be a completely different story if he became dictator (as opposed to governor) of VA. Of course, I fully understand why it is a no-brainer for a homosexual to choose the shady McAuliffe over Cuccinelli.

I am sorry if I gave the impression that Sarvis took votes only from Cuccinelli. Some of his votes came from McAuliffe, and others came from those who otherwise would not have voted. However, Cuccinelli was hurt as the result of Sarvis in the race (though--as exit polls show--Cuccinelli would have still lost if it were just a two person race).

Edited November 11, 2013 by Max

[quartermainefan]

They both are not outright lies, but if the president and his team is trying to make people think one thing that they know isn't true and people are thinking it, it is as good as a lie. Obama sold his plan with a very simple idea attached: if you like your plan you can keep it. That is one sentence, to the point and he didn't go around making speeches about grandfather clauses and if you got sub par insurance individually. He said if you like your plan you can keep it. This will be the gift to republicans because it is something very easy for people to understand. "He said you can keep it and you can't. We told you." Nothing else will cut through that because everything else is going to sound like double talking BS even if it is true.

Bush and Cheney went to great lengths to trick the american people into thinking Iraq was connected to 9/11 because that is who they wanted to attack. Again, they may not have said we have proof, but they knew what they were trying to make people think. Once again, that is all that matters because that is what happened, and any attempt at lawyerly explanations will just come off as verbal trickery. "Cheney never said they had proof" doesn't matter because Cheney knew what he was leading people to think. They said there were WMDs, they claimed an Al Quaeda member passed through Iraq, and then allowed the sheep to connect the dots they laid out for them.

Edited November 11, 2013 by quartermainefan

[DRW50]

Cuccinelli was elected to a moderate district in spite of his views. He was very proud of them. I don't think he would have changed them.

I guess it's moot now.

I wasn't surprised by the margin. Maybe 3-4 points, I would have expected, not 2, but I think having Obama show up to campaign was a bad idea.

[DRW50]

So, Max, I wondered if you had any thoughts on the Rob Ford stuff which has gotten lots of breathless coverage in the US.

[Wales2004]

McCain/Palin probably didn't seem to be much of an alternative to some so the timing was perfect for him and his inexperience. That's on the Republicans for not running "better" candidates.

On another note, I just came across this:

http://www.khou.com/news/local/White-guy-wins-after-leading-voters-to-believe-hes-black-231222981.html

[DRW50]

Condolences to Sen. Jim Inhofe, whose son died in a plane crash.

http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/around-oklahoma/sen-jim-inhofes-son-dies-in-plane-crash-near-owasso/-/12530084/22914532/-/1q9gvr/-/index.html

[marceline]

Obama's mistake was trying to dumb down the ACA for people. The more you try to simplify something as complicated as health insurance, the easier it is to skip over details and nuance. That's what happened here. Obama didn't willingly lie to people he just made the same mistake he always makes: he underestimated how low his opponents would sink. He thought the insurance companies would bring their junk policies up to code instead burning them and trying to up-sell desperate customers.

[DRW50]

Um...Richard Cohen decides to lay it all out there and say that conservatives want to throw up when they see interracial couples.

He also says that opposing interracial relationships doesn't make the GOP racist, which is a whole other can of worms.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-christies-tea-party-problem/2013/11/11/a1ffaa9c-4b05-11e3-ac54-aa84301ced81_story.html?hpid=z2

Edited November 12, 2013 by DRW50

[DRW50]

Remember all the hysteria over "liberals" who made fun of Christie's weight, and how dare they?

I wonder if we will hear any of that now that Palin is joining in.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/palin-christie-s-appearance-so-extreme-it-s-hard-not-to-comment-on-it

[Juliajms]

I think it's in poor taste no matter who is doing it, but we have bigger fish to fry than someone's weight and who is talking about it. Things are going to hell in a hand basket and this is what our politicians spend their time on?

I really cannot believe the Obama administration has fumbled the ball the way they have with the ACA. It was so hard to bring people around to this sort of massive change in our health care system. I just hope they can salvage it, so that more people can get the healthcare they need.

Plus, it seems like the problems so far are mostly with the technical side of the roll out. I've always been a little afraid of what will happen to premiums once this is completely rolled out. If they can't get the website right, I don't have a lot of confidence that they've correctly assessed the overall impact this law will have on health care. Jesus take the wheel.

These are the times I feel especially lucky that I am healthy and covered by my husband's work insurance. I remember a time when neither of those things were true and none of us knows what the future will hold. So many countries have done a better job of health care then we have. I don't understand why we can't get it right.

[DRW50]

I'd say it's because big money in this country doesn't want us to get it right.

The whole rollout has been a nightmare. While Obama is good at campaigns, I think he's had a tin ear for this type of stuff, as a lot of the people he's chosen for his departments seem to fumble.

I am trying to remember things take time and the 2014 elections are still a year away, because I'm very scared of what will be done to this law, and to many other laws, if the GOP takes over the Senate.

[Juliajms]

Yeah, I agree big money is part of the problem, but at some point individuals have to take responsibility for swallowing the koolaid.

Plus the democrats have a real chance to get the ACA right and they f*cked it up. I'm sorry there is no other way to put it. This was a golden opportunity and for whatever reason it's been turned into a debacle.

I really hope this doesn't send health care reform back 20 years.

I can't guess what will happen in 2014. For awhile there, the GOP was shooting itself in the foot left and right, with their ridiculous comments about rape, women and minorities. Now the democrats have seriously screwed up with the ACA. It's like a war of attrition.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Juliajms

[juppiter]

The Democrats, even with a successful ACA rollout, were never going to capture the House in 2014. That was like fanfiction. Gaining a couple House seats would be a huge coup. Keeping the Senate would be a huge coup. Taking back the House was not going to happen, ever. It would be unprecedented.

It all matters so little. I post on politics message boards, and the conservatives keep coming at us like we are on the defensive with the ACA. But the hardcore liberal base never supported the ACA to begin with. To me, this is our transition to single-payer. We must keep it for now, but it doesn't mean I like it.

[quartermainefan]

Obama really bungled it. One day it was the end of the republican party with their shutdown that had 2/3 of the country blaming them, and the next day it is Obama in the toilet because of Obamacare. And it shows you just what amateur hour it was because this is it, this is what his presidency will be remembered for and nothing else. So you have one signature accomplishment (which Clinton did not) and you not only screw it up but in multiple ways? If this doesn't work that will be it for 20 years and it will be a huge blow to liberalism, and for what, because he didn't want to get QA on a website? Even worse than that though is his "Lie". Once something sticks to you it doesn't come off, and there is just not too many ways to spin him insisting everyone would keep their healthcare when it was just not true.

Once Bush said "heck of a job, Brownie" the country stopped listening to him. Sane people stopped listening to him before then but the "Brownie" moment was the turning point for Bush he would never recover from. McCain and his "the fundamentals of the economy are strong" is another example. A moment comes and a switch goes off with the public and it becomes impossible to win the public back. We shall see if Obama's promises to make right will work, but I don't think so because none of his fixes can be explained in one sentence and with simple concepts of right and wrong. Brownie wasn't doing a heck of a job, end of story. People were not able to keep their insurance, no one wants to hear about grandfather clauses and sub standard emergency policies as you try to worm out of a jam. Second terms always seem to end badly for presidents and Obama appears to be no exception. This is why you need Bill and Hillary. Bill would have explained it all and sold it successfully. And if Obama does manage to see his way through this crisis it will be because Bill pushed him into doing it.