17 hours ago, Vee said:

Van Jones has been a running online joke since Obama won and cast him out. He's not relevant outside of cable news producers and most people don't care what he thinks. And as for the public, not enough of them are fine with the old Trump - that's why he lost and kept losing since 2020. Without serious extenuating factors he has not had the numbers since '16. He bleeds support.

A lot of the Beltway or the donor class loves to listen to online pundits or idiot contrarians/right wing adjacents who already hate the Dems (Yglesias, Nate Silver, Jeet Heer) because they fear actually looking at the party's positives means they're not in touch with the heartland, but that's not the real world or the reality of the race. Those contrarians, or the legions of Trump fans on Twitter who follow them, are also not possessed of some unique knowledge and should not be engaged with as though they have a legitimate take. This is winnable, but it means ending the party self-own cycle. One way or another.

I don't mention Van Jones as a claim he is influential with the public, more that he is a strong example of the media's agenda regarding Trump. 

Trump won in 2016 and almost won in 2020. He has likely lost some support since that time, due to many of his voters dying, but then there are so many factors that benefit him (media adoration, tech bro adoration, so many of his worst impulses being blocked during his first term, the idea many have that the economy was better under him, the nihilism and accelerationist attitudes that lead many to go to him). And a big part of this appeal has always been people making him what they want him to be, not caring about what he actually is. I don't know how accurate polling is, I try not to put any faith in polling for that reason, but I do feel like those conditions are a big help to him again.

One of the reasons I did think for a time and still want to think Biden is a stronger candidate than most Democrats would be is that he also has a unique appeal and isn't just an empty suit. And I think many like Yglesias underestimate this factor because they believe "youth" or being "telegenic" matters much more to the public than it actually does.

I'm already seeing a lot of anger over Brown's decision, but it mostly makes me worry just how bad things are on the ground because I don't believe he would say this otherwise.

Edited July 20, 20241 yr by DRW50

18 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Real talk: Do people honestly believe that putting up a new ticket in July is a winning strategy?
 

Personally, I don’t trust these people with my vote. I do believe that they want to simultaneously push out Joe Biden and push out Kamala Harris, or the sham of putting her on a ticket that won’t have the time to get together a winning strategy. It’s similar to Hollywood where Black artists are underfunded but are expected to produce wildly successful results or they risk never getting another chance. I believe they are hoping to do this to Harris. Kneecap her, so they can claim she had her chance and fell short but in reality, any new ticket will have a steep time deficit.

AOC, whether people believe she is accurate or not, us seeing things, the way many WOC are currently seeing this: a group of moneyed people are trying to wrest control out of the hands of the base of the party, and just expect everyone to acquiesce and comply. This has the potential to be an unmitigated disaster if it keeps on this path.

I sure don't. Right now I have no sense at all of the facts and I have no idea who to trust in public life or the media. I agree that it's morally wrong to replace the ticket the party base (obviously black women) voted for in the primary. The only reason it should be done is if Biden is unfit assuming we don't want to win at any cost that is.

We could settle this with a medical exam, but I think the people in Biden's don't want to ask a question they don't already know the answer to. If they are sure he's fine, why wouldn't they simply prove it? Barring a medical exam, I'm not sure what or who to believe. 

The question is are we willing to do whatever it takes to win this time given the stakes. Is this the one time we should truly be ruthless as a party? Even if we were willing to get down in the mud to win I'm not sure anyone in charge is certain how to make that happen. Pelosi doesn't believe Biden can win and wants another chance to roll the dice, but that comes with an ugly price and an uncertain outcome.

8 hours ago, Juliajms2 said:

The question is are we willing to do whatever it takes to win this time given the stakes. Is this the one time we should truly be ruthless as a party?

This is when we need Bill and Hillary Clinton.  Not to run, of course, but to help the Democrats outline some kind of strategy going forward.

Say what you will about those two, but they weren't afraid to get their hands a little dirty if it meant getting us over the finish line.

1 hour ago, Khan said:

This is when we need Bill and Hillary Clinton.  Not to run, of course, but to help the Democrats outline some kind of strategy going forward.

Say what you will about those two, but they weren't afraid to get their hands a little dirty if it meant getting us over the finish line.

From what I have read, the Clintons back Biden.

Whether folks want to listen to the Clintons or be dismissive, is a whole other story. But dismissing the voices of those who have already cast their votes is a recipe for decades of distrust down the road.

In other news, this seems important.

 

 

The gossipy stories get worse and worse, I suspect many are overblown and I am not going to rehash them all. I will simply say that if, as reported, Pelosi or anyone else high up in the apparatus think that an open convention or 'blitz primary' is an option going forward they are far stupider than I thought. AFAIC if neither Biden nor Harris is the nominee we all might as well start making intercontinental flight plans now.

Things admittedly change by the moment, but atm I think it is more likely than not that Joe goes. I think the way he has been treated by the party and the way this whole thing has been done is disgraceful and shameful. I think he is competent and able to serve. But the fact is that being holed up in Rehoboth coughing up a lung in your 80s, cursing the fates and (allegedly) grumbling about how Obama and Pelosi are Judases is not a good look for anyone. The intra-party situation is not recoverable from what I have seen, thanks to the behavior of so many on the inside. By the same token I feel both Joe and his people have mishandled a lot of this all month long before now.

I understand why the resolution runs so deep. I think Joe is deeply haunted by the fact that Obama (again, allegedly) asked him to stand aside so Clinton could run in '16 against Trump. I think this was a profound miscalculation by the Dems. I think Joe believes if he had run he'd have won, and all this misery could've been avoided. And I now think he's right. But this situation is untenable. I suspect a lot of ink will be spilled in days and years to come about how unfair this whole backchannel op was (in addition to the WH's own mistakes), but it's happened.

None of this had to happen or should've happened this way but it is where we are now. We can't change it and neither can anyone else. Something has to be done to cauterize this situation, hard and fast, and then it will have to be Harris IMO.

I saw Trump onstage the other night. Everyone did. Against him, now, not in 2016 or maybe even in 2020, Kamala can win. Joe can win too IMO, but I fear he has too many disadvantages against him both inside the party and outside in the media to continue. So if this is going to happen it's got to happen now. But one way or another everyone has to cut the bullshít and stop going by the wishboard in some rich donor's office (looking at you, coked-up studio execs withholding cash) and move forward with Kamala. Now. Nothing else is an option or ever will be.

 

1 hour ago, Vee said:

AFAIC if neither Biden nor Harris is the nominee we all might as well start making intercontinental flight plans now.

Unfortunately, there are too many in this country who cannot afford to have Donald Trump back in the WH, but who also cannot afford to leave should that come to pass.  To me, that is perhaps the greatest tragedy in this situation, even more than how our current leader has been treated by members from within his own party.

I agree that the Democrats' treatment of Joe Biden has been nothing less than abominable.  After all that his administration has done to bring this country back from the abyss, THIS is the thanks he gets?  I expected the media to treat Biden like [!@#$%^&*], but his own party?  And all because of ONE lousy debate performance?

It's like what I've said before: the Democrats are so desperate to beat Trump that they're not thinking clearly, or even at all!  Instead of circling the proverbial wagons and pointing out that Biden's shaky performance in the debate shouldn't negate his administration's record OR the fact that Donald Trump remains an existential threat to our democracy, it's like they're saying, "You know, maybe all the cash-sucking cretins on YouTube and social media who've been saying for years that Biden is senile have a point?" 

In the process, all these Democrats have done is to allow the GOP and the media to control the narrative once more, making the entire party look foolish and ineffective -- and at a time when this all should've been a lay-up for our side, too!

Frankly, I'm at the point where I question whether either political party is worth saving, or whether there shouldn't be more than two, viable parties in this country.

Edited July 20, 20241 yr by Khan

I think Biden has been treated disrespectfully, but, as someone who thought many of the criticisms of his age were hyperbolic, I also think he and his campaign got overconfident at the wrong time with the debate and walked into a trap that the GOP and the media set.

Any wrong word or wobble is going to follow Biden from now until November, constantly harped on by not just the press, but many in the party who have given up and are just trying to cut their losses. The frailty and hesitancy from him is now the full face, whether that is fair or not. And his frustration over what that debate unleashed means more and more of a bunker mentality. I don't know if there will be a big unity or rallying moment, but even if there is, I am not sure it will mean a great deal to all the people who aren't already loyal and are hearing constantly from the press and those in their lives about the wonders of Trump and the GOP or being pushed to just stay home because both sides bad, nothing matters. But if there is going to be a rallying moment it has to come very soon, not dragged out for weeks and weeks.

The case that Biden and his team could have made for himself has been reduced to court drama, breathless reports of who he's mad at or how Hunter is urging him to stay in. It gives me very bad flashbacks to all the drama surrounding Hillary's 2008 campaign, where she stayed in much longer than she needed to because she felt hurt and betrayed, and anyone who wasn't on her side was painted as an elite and was warned that her supporters would not show up in November.

We don't have time for any of that, as Trump makes McCain seem like Mr. Rogers. We need a lot of urgency but more than anything his people need to come out and acknowledge that the criticisms are fair, instead of going on about elites when many of the members of Congress who are making these calls are clearly panicked about what is going on and are getting little indication as to why they shouldn't be panicked. The current tone just makes Biden a martyr to an ever-diminishing circle and leads to his supporters going around with a growing list of which senator or member of Congress they aren't voting for while Trump continues to grow more and more powerful.

 

Edited July 20, 20241 yr by DRW50

This is the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time, and most likely/hopefully is a trial balloon from a very clear outlier group (two randos, one being a venture capitalist) that goes nowhere.

The candidates could then introduce themselves either in traditional televised forums or — as the authors prefer — in a televised series that includes Oprah Winfrey moderating a forum on “Personal Journeys – and Your Big Dreams for America;” Mr. Beast and Zendaya moderating one on “America’s Future…And Issues Facing Youth;” and Kara Swisher and Reed Hastings hosting one on “Technology, Innovation, and the Next American Century.” The memo says that informal outreach has begun to moderators and television networks.

Oprah, MrBeast and Zendaya. Katie bar the door.

Tim McGraw, Common and Yo-Yo Ma?

Lin-Manuel Miranda, Henry Louis Gates and Doris Kearns Goodwin??

Condi Rice and McChrystal? Ben Sasse???

10 minutes ago, Vee said:

This is the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time, and most likely/hopefully is a trial balloon from a very clear outlier group (two randos, one being a venture capitalist) that goes nowhere.

Oprah, MrBeast and Zendaya. Katie bar the door.

All we're missing is Streisand.

1 minute ago, DRW50 said:

All we're missing is Streisand.

I didn't look as closely at the rest of this list. It's so much worse! It feels like an SNL sketch.

I support Biden.

But if the nomination for President goes to Kamala Harris, here is a list of suggestions for her VP:
https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/kamala-harris-running-mate-biden-drops-out-b2582129.html

Of they ones they mentioned, I think only Mark Kelly would have enough universal appeal.

Loath as I am to post a Bill Maher clip, Pete Buttigieg does a very good job here of explaining in very clear terms the motivations of JD Vance and also why Peter Thiel supports a fascist even though he's a gay man.

 

Any other year or era than right now, Pete would be a great VP pick for Harris.

10 minutes ago, Vee said:

Any other year or era than right now, Pete would be a great VP pick for Harris.

Similar to her I think he's just too despised on all sides, but he's a very good communicator, one of the best in the party. He should be doing this from now to November.