Knots Landing

[kalbir]

@Vee In the Ava Gardner episodes, there are great scenes where Laura calls out Ruth and puts her on blast.

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by kalbir

[yrfan1983]

I have to go on record as not being a fan of Meg (Sumner) McKenzie or Bobby and Betsy Gibson/Ewing (hmm what was their last name once everything shook out...?) 

It was unavoidable to have a younger next generation on the cul de sac. But if I wanted cute and spunky l'il kids, I'd turn on a sitcom.

It would have been cool if, maybe around 1990, the show did a time jump and the kids would be recast around 16 years old, and could take on more adult storylines. Mack, Karen, Gary and Val, of course, would be magically un-aged after the time jump and look just as fabulous as ever.

[Vee]

I will differ on this one. I think kids are part of the fabric of any soap, but especially a show like Knots where it was centered around a cul-de-sac/neighborhood and around families and couples, some with kids. I think it adds to the texture when you just see them living life, growing up. The difference here is the schedule and arena. Knots (thus far) has given more attention to those kind of characters than most primetime soaps I know of ever did vs. the glamorous or simply adult leads, largely because it was baked in for the show from the pilot - Karen's children, Laura being a parent, etc. They're part of the package here unlike many primetime soaps, just like any more critic-palatable 'non-soap' network family drama of the last 30-40 years (Parenthood, Picket Fences, This is Us; take your choice).

OTOH, plenty of daytime soaps in the last 20 years have taken it way too far with the kids, partly I suspect because it's been alleged (and I believe it) that the networks, fearful of the perceived shrinking/conservative audience base for soaps, often will only rubber-stamp baby stories over anything too edgy. That's how you end up with shows like GH today or AMC 1.0 near the end, where there's a gaggle of children you can't remember the names of flocking around every young woman in sight who shouldn't have so many, and you just want them to stop shrieking and get out. (I'll never forget that endless sequence with Alicia Minshew and Sarah Glendening on AMC where their collected onscreen kids chased them around a set for two separate segments in a scene that did not seem scripted or controlled.) Ellen Wheeler's Mormon GL was the same.

[yrfan1983]

I didn't mind the pre-teens of the early years - the Avery boys and Brian Cunningham. They were mostly "seen but not heard". Jason was recast at least 3 times and no one cared

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In the later years, the kids got more of a spotlight.  Meg in particular, IMO, was given too much focus. I found the Meg actor cutesy and performative, in quite a grating way.

= =

Vee, can't wait to hear your thoughts as the baby theft story kicks into gear. I am always haunted by the final scene of the Thanksgiving ep... so disturbing.

I know this never would have happened, because the show had left Dallas far behind,  but I would still have appreciated a Lucy appearance around this time. It feels like a plot hole for her to be absent where her mother is in such a crisis. I'm picturing Gary summoning her to support Val, around the time of the Thanksgiving ep, but things would backfire, because seeing Lucy only reminds Val of the trauma of JR stealing baby Lucy, and Val just spirals further.

[DRW50]

On paper, I would agree that it's important for families to be seen and to continue on, and I even liked the twins well enough (even if they are very TV commercial-esque), but I'd agree with @yrfan1983 about Meg. The actress was...well she was a child actor, so you know how that usually goes, so I was just more bothered by how contrived and tedious the whole setup could be. I don't think Mack and Karen needed a child, I thought it just further brought out the sanctimonious and irritating roles (especially Mack) by that time. If the idea was just to keep Greg single and ready to mingle, I think it would have been better to just invent a relative of Laura's or send her to live with Richard. I also never, ever believed Laura would have wanted them raising her child. It overstated the Karen/Laura relationship quite a bit and ended up taking away her voice as a character even more than the show had already done. 

[Vee]

I like Olivia a lot, who's easily the most skilled of the younger set but was also a cute kid, and I've always liked Michael and Eric (and now feel guilty as they've grown into attractive young men). Jason the Immortal One never seems to grow at all but we rarely see him, lol. Brian I have no opinion on except for his being the bratty kid from Tremors and a few recent MST3K episodes who's okay enough, but I know he is replaced by David Silver very shortly so we'll see if he develops a personality.

That is a good idea. The absence is glaring, and I say that as someone who cannot tolerate Charlene Tilton for longer than ninety seconds at a time (which is three times as long as she can act on-camera). I understand why they divorced themselves more from Dallas, but I like the connective tissue to be used when it can. I did like when they addressed it in Season 5 where Val claims she and Lucy are doing great to try to lift Karen's spirits over Diana, then Karen asks how long it's been since they've talked and Val admits it's been nine months - that felt real. I look forward to the next and I assume last crossover episode, also the first in a long while, which will be next season for me.

I'm only up to ep 8, so I don't yet understand why Scott Easton, who I believe is supposed to be a lobbyist Abby secured from inside Sumner's campaign to further her interests there (which leads to a discussion of how Abby in early S6 has seemingly sublimated her aborted sexual relationship with Greg into power games of corporate dominance after having recommitted herself more honestly to Gary, but that's a topic for when I cover the last 10 or so eps), is clearly the man starting to mastermind the theft here. Why would a political lobbyist stick his neck out on what is essentially human trafficking for a business interest? He's not Wolfbridge. But obviously I don't know the full story yet (and there is a whole weird subplot with some murders or whatever that is beginning to build in an interesting way).

Edited September 15, 2022 by Vee

[titan1978]

Meg became outsized in importance because she was a source of conflict, both direct and underlying, for Greg, Karen and Mack.  And much like Michael on GH, it wore thin very quickly, and yet still went on and on.  And then the grandmother arrived to make another story about Meg.

I truly think what was missing was Lucy visiting at least one more time and just flat out deciding her parents and their life was just too boring for her, and telling them so.  Maybe almost hooking up with lets say Kenny and embarrassing Valene.  I also think it could have added some poignance for Gary and Val that their daughter was influenced more by JR than by them.

[yrfan1983]

I don't recall all the details, but I think Scott Easton is just a stooge doing Paul Galveston's bidding, and Galveston has his own reasons for following up on Abby's wish that Gary's babies didn't exist. You'll see soon that Easton is considered easily expendable.

Edited September 15, 2022 by yrfan1983

[j swift]

I recently saw a scene from Knots during the Lotus Point story and that set was beautiful. 

It was so cinematic that they could see into each other's offices from reception.  You could feel the presence of the southern California sun lighting the space, even though it was obviously shot on a sound stage.  It all felt real and luxurious.  At the time, a resort was in the news, as it was developed where Marineland once was in the wealthy enclave of Palos Verdes (funded by Lowes Resorts and developed by a man named York Long Point - Lowes/Point = Lotus Point).  Much like the Sumner Group replicated the new office buildings being built during the revitalization of downtown LA in the early 90s, I think Knots doesn't get enough credit for looking like it was specifically set in Los Angeles.

On the other hand, the clothes are bizarre by today's standards. Abby and Karen were wearing peak shoulders with layers upon layers of padding.  The scene I watched of Abby telling Karen that Gary had found Val, had Karen wearing a sweater with pads, under a jacket with pads, under a cape with pads, and her shoulders were propped up to her ears, while Abby was wearing the most intricate layering of eye shadows that one wondered how she made to the office on time. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by j swift

[DemetriKane]

!!!! Accurate.

@victoria foxton @Soaplovers @yrfan1983 @DRW50 Yea, Paige was such a hard character for me to get into at the beginning of her run. And it wasn't just the coldness (for me), but attempting to force her in the Diana/Laura roles flopped hard with this superfan of both characters. Her character took me on a rollercoaster though one week I would like her and then hate her in the next. Her relationship with Anne does help making her more rootable. And throwing Abby in the mix helps you root for her to snag Greg. She has always reminded  me of Greenlee Smythe (AMC).

If there was one thing LML got right, it would be Paige. She understood Nicolette as an actress and how to highlight her strengths.

@Vee Ava was awesome and her interactions with Laura were fun if not, also short-lived. 

[Vee]

I will have a lot to say about the first act of Season 6 soon enough, but I will say that the end of Episode 8 is a killer. Putting aside how hard it is to watch JVA in this material because everything is on her face, and Abby's genuinely sad and sympathetic reaction to the news about Val losing the babies in spite of everything (a moment virtually every other primetime soap I can recall would've played for camp bitchery), the final phone call from one of Easton/whoever's associates asking for 'the father's blood type' for 'the children in question' is so, so creepy. Donna Mills was so right to make them change the story and do it this way, and it still is just as effective and chilling if not far moreso, because Abby, who couldn't stomach Wolfbridge, would never have intended this either and has suddenly found herself trapped inside of this plot. The mounting confusion and then horror in Mills' eyes is just great, and it's through that that Abby can become an audience identification character in this story on a certain level, because they've been in on it for a few episodes ahead of her. The mindfuck on this reveal for a live audience back in the day must have been insane.

Also, Val's infamous creepy doctor looks a lot like Larry Drake a.k.a. Dr. Giggles.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Vee

[yrfan1983]

What an acting tour de force by JVA! More of that to come…

(how was she not nominated for an Emmy?

[Spin865]

Since I rewatched this episode a few days ago my question is what kind of horrible horror movie-like nightmare was Oliva having that Abby had to sleep in the same bed as her? I will pretend she was having some premonition about Val's baby's being stolen. And I love that the Cul- De- Sac is such a close place that Michael appears to know Gary's ranch house telephone number by heart.   

Edited September 18, 2022 by Spin865

[Vee]

That actually goes way back to the beginning (though I'm sure you know this better than I); Olivia came onto the show plagued by nightmares and often would go to Abby (or when staying there, Val) upon waking. She kept having them for ages, although I was also a bit surprised that the Olivia who has noticeably physically matured since last season would crawl into bed with Abby again. I too thought it was a deliberate parallel and a suggestion of her having a premonition; I loved that moment.

The magic of the cul-de-sac and neighborhood arena for all the characters still hasn't faded - the Thanksgiving scenes in Episode 9 were wonderfully heartfelt and unforced. I'll try to cover as much of this stuff from the last 10 eps and the very end of Season 5 more as I can soon, though I've talked about a fair bit already. (It's notable that I believe Thanksgiving may have been Abby's first officially attended event in the cul-de-sac since Season 3 - she's stayed away years.)

Edited September 18, 2022 by Vee

[FrenchBug82]

Which is why, as an aside, the final ever scene of the show never hit me like it did so many other fans. I get the full circle motif but Abby only briefly felt "of the cul-de-sac" so bringing her back there felt like contrived nostalgia for a specific short period of the show rather than a true bow that understood what made and tied those characters.

But ending a long running show is hard and it was a cute warm scene. Just I recall my Abby fandom not feeling sold on what they were going for, specifically for what Vee mentions hère.