March 31 - April 4, 2008

[Southofnowhere]

Preach it Roman , preach it!

[dragonflies]

WORD Roman!!!!!!!!!!!

[Roman]

I think what has happened is that many have just lost complete trust in the soaps.

Especially with the access to alot ofbackstage information,when you hear something like Ken Corday firing the entire Days writing staff and bringing back a writer that many just don't like, and have no faith in, it makes it really hard to tune in with any faith or excitement for the show you used to love, becuase the trust just isn't there.

[Vee]

There's really nothing to say that hasn't been said before. This is an inexorable trend hitting everything. Quality seems to not matter much any longer. I may love OLTL since RC took over but quality is not going to fix this. Only major changes at the network, not OLTL's creative level, might do something. After watching a decade of material ranging from crap to unrecognizable and then to "gee, he (Malone) used to be so good so I'll give him a sympathy vote of support while acknowledging the show is nigh-unwatchable" all before Carlivati, I don't consider the current writing at OLTL (not counting several dodgy stories during the strike) a problem anymore, and if it continues as it has, I never will. If there is anything can fix this all-daytime slump, it's not down at that level anymore.

I do think a huge part of it is trust. In OLTL's case, I think a lot of people left in disgust during Higley and didn't bother coming back (I left, but did come back). And then I think a few of the other hardcore nut fanbases which Higley and Malone developed left when they weren't being pandered to, but they are no [!@#$%^&*] loss. But how do you tell fans who want to care that they can trust again? These days, if they see a single spoiler and misinterpret it in the worst way possible - because that's what they've been trained to expect, the worst - they refuse to watch at all and miss out. "Oh, the Buchanan story does not feature Joey or Kevin, so it is not worth my time. Oh, Natalie is not with John so I am done. Oh, Viki is only mentioned two times in vague general spoilers for the week." Etc.

[MarkH]

Obviously, if one no longer likes a show, or has time for it, it is fine to let it go.

But if there is a show one loves, I think we have the obligation to stick with it as long as we can. (Which most of us probably do). For me, the LAST show I watch regularly (I was ABC in the 80s, in addition to Y&R/B& is Y&R. And it would have to get AWFUL (I mean, much worse than LML awful) before I let it go. It is too much a part of my life.

I've actually started watching _a bit_ of a new (for me) soap this last year: ATWT. But my loyalty will never be what it is for Y&R.

[PhoenixRising05]

Exactly.

No one is suggesting people have to force themselves to watch something. It's just that in the past many hoped for bad ratings to force change. I just don't think that works anymore. The soaps are low enough as it is. I don't think the networks see any change being enough to get the ratings back up enough to a level that is seen as a success. I think it's more of a "let's hold on to who we have" thinking then trying to get viewers back. Like I said, no matter who is writing or what is done, it's not going to be enough. As Ryan suggested, the ratings are fickle and have been for years. They don't necessarily respond to quality and they don't even have a rhyme or reason anymore. It sucks that a show's survival comes down to them because it's not even measuring the whole audience. It's measuring a sample and that is where it's unfair.

TPTB waited too long to correct the damage done and that is why I can't see this getting any better. Soaps just have to hold on to who they have and, if that isn't enough, then it's done and they will have to find new homes. I mean, soaps have made some changes. I know Higley isn't beloved on this board but she is at least putting the right people onscreen and doing a better job then last time (at least IMO) and OLTL, while stalling a bit lately, has changed for the better from a year ago. Y&R is improving steadily. I mean, some soaps have done things to make themselves better so I do think they are trying but it's just not enough. Yes, more needs to be done but I don't even think it will make a difference other then pleasing what fans they have left and that is if those fans even want what is being given.

The networks are probably at the point now where they see the downward trend continuing and with every week that goes by they begin to think it's just not worth it to do anything else. They will go the cruel route and watch each soap die so they can let them go and go the cheaper route. They don't need soaps and could care less about them so no matter what is done or how many complaints there are, I think it's a pointless battle. Never used to think that but the numbers are just too low now.

[PhoenixRising05]

That is how I feel too. I've never dropped Days. Come close only once (the Iraq story). I have dropped GH, Y&R, AMC, and GL at times but a few months ago I started watching all 9 soaps again because I don't know how long they will be around. I just want to enjoy them while I have them. Not everyone is like that though, which is fine. That is alot of time in the day to devote to watching TV and people are busy so if they aren't into a show anymore or don't like what is going on, they can't afford to waste their time with it. I understand that. It's just the "bad ratings will force change" thing that I think is something that is ineffective now.

[SteveFrame]

Yes it comes down to trust and the fact that we can't trust the shows anymore. We can't trust them and the folks behind them anymore. I hate the inference that is made on message boards that fans who bitch and quit watching are not loyal fans or are disloyal. Believe me I have been called than and so have many others.

To me loyalty breeds loyalty - if the show wants my loyalty then give me some reason to be loyal. The soaps are not doing that any longer.

And some of you keep talking about quality. Quality matters very little in ratings with soaps - always has and always will. Some of the most popular shows in the history of soapdom have been soaps that were not filled with great quality.

Dark Shadows had very low grade sets, costuming, showed mistakes on the air - it wasn't Shakespeare folks but the stories were riveting. And they were ture to themselves.

Soap fans watch for characters - for stories - for escapism - for romance. They could care less about the other stuff most of the time.

The reference to Hogan is the perfect example. I don't fault Corday for once for firing Hogan. Sure Hogan brought somewhat better writing to the show - not in his headwriting but in his writing team - who had great writing and gerat dialogue. But the stories stunk to high heaven. People could care less about the great dialogue if the stories are not good and the key elements or people aren't there. Corday needed to make a change. Hogan needed to go. I just hate he got who he did.

People talked about Ed Scott coming along and how great it was with the camera work and all. Yes it has been and it has been noticeable. But even with the big changes he made the ratings didn't start really moving until stories got a little more exciting and people took notice.

You can take and paint an old house and make it look great. But if the old house has foundation problems all you have done is made an old house look better and you didn't fix anything.

That is what the powers that be are doing today. They are fixing the look --- they are making minor changes ----- adding familiar faces ----- taking that house and putting fancy wallpaper and fresh coats of paint on it - and never fixing what is wrong.

Soap fans could care less about most of this. Sure it is good for an initial bump, but if it is only superficial soap fans won't stay. At least true soap opera fans. Fan bases who are so caught up in their faves will stay - they will stay no matter what is dished out usually.

The Edge of Night was very popular for years and grabbed big ratings. They never had fancy sets. Their sets were awful and so were so many other things about the show. They never did the fancy location shoots that other soaps did. But the writing was spectacular.

We need the money that TPTB are spending on hese little things that don't matter spent in getting better writers. Putting the right people back to work on the shows. And quit all the damn stunt casting. We don't care about it. Stop spending what little money you have on Shirley Jones and Betty White types and give us good writing all year long.

As far as the shows being cancelled. I'm sorry to the fans of some of the shows. It took me a long time to get to this point, but frankly I feel like some of the shows - at least five of them - need to be cancelled. Tehy are suffering. They no longer know who they are. They have drifted so far away from their original purpose and hardly recognizable anymore.

We pray many times that the people in our lives don't have to suffer. We talk about quality of life all the time. I know I only want to live as long as I am not a burden to my family. I do not want to lay up in a nursing home and live off a feeding tube or some type of life suppport confined to a bed for the rest of my life.

Some of these shows have already had the feeding tubes installed. The respirators are turned on. They are just lying there fully on life support and no hope of getting off of it.

Sometimes it is hard to give up a loved one, but often times it is more loving to let them go. That is the way I feel about my soaps these days. It is kinder to let them go out with a little dignity than die a sad miserable death and lose all their dignity.

[SteveFrame]

The question I want to know then is how are we supposed to force change then?

Writing letters don't do anything. They can tear them up. Until you hit them in their pocket book they won't listen. The ratings no matter what they are is still the place to force change. It is the only affective way to do it. It is either that or boycotting advertisers to the point they stop advertising with the company. Either way you end up with the same thing.

In essence what you are saying is that those of us want to force change need to stop or we are going to get the shows cancelled because TPTB are not interested in making changes anymore. So they will just cancel them instead. So you are saying to those that are just quitting to try to force change to watch the show or just quit, because instead of making change they are going to lose their show instead.

In essence you are saying either watch what they dish out or say goodbye.

I'm sorry I don't buy into that. I still have a small amount of love left for some of the shows to just walk away and give up without a fight. For some my viewrship is completely gone. But for some if changes were made and the right kind of changes then I would come back. But I am not going to come back just for the sake of keeping the show around.

I would rather see the shows gone instead of giving in and accepting whatever they dish out - just for the sake of it being there.

AGain I go back to the dignity issue. Irna Phillips herself said many times that when a show stops being what it is supposed to be then it needs to go. And she cancelled many of her shows due to that - both on radio and TV.

[Scotty]

Well, well, well.....as I live and breath. Welcome back buddy. Long time, no see. I've been so busy lately with student teaching that I was unaware that you had returned. Welcome back man! Gald to see you posting on SON again.

[Scotty]

Me too......and I also blame ABC, who seems to have some crazy fixation with the man. If they didn't, with these dismal ratings, his butt would have been canned a long, long time ago.

[dragonflies]

Yep for some reason they insist on promoting Frons for being a FAILURE

WTF??

[MarkH]

How eloquently put...and how sad. I mean, really, truly sad.

Intellectually, but not emotionally, I have accepted what you say. It is true.

I think the reason I haven't accepted it is because I cling to hope--even still. I think it is possible for these soaps to find glory again...AND to find the buzz that will bring new eyeballs--demographically desirable eyeballs--back.

But, again, I have to admit that I'm part of the problem. Two decades ago, AMC and GH were can't miss for me. More recently, B&B was can't miss for me. Now, I _never_ watch AMC/GH (except for snippets if I'm flipping past Soapnet), and B&B loses me EVERY TIME they dip back into the incest well. So I'm not showing loyalty. I can't during the "dreck" phases.

You're right about the shows showing loyalty, too. One of the reasons Y&R keeps me is that I can still count on seeing Victor and Nikki and Jack and Neil and Brad and Nick and Sharon and Kay and Jill... folks who have been there 1-3 decades. New characters are introduced in ways that tie them to the canvas (at least during most of the regimes). Y&R shows loyalty to a legacy vision of Genoa City...and that commands my loyalty too. The characters are there, they are still front and center, and they act in ways that tie to history. That's all it takes.

[Vee]

What's really stunning is the sheer amount of flashbacks on AMC now. At first I thought they were using so many constant flashbacks of Angie and Jesse and the sucky six during the strike to pad the show. Now, the writers are all back and they're still doing it, and again today. I think ABCD has in part finally realized they need to embrace their history mine the past, but they continue going about it in the most half-assed way over on AMC. I mean, what purpose does Greg Nelson's brief return really serve? OLTL I think's done much better - it hasn't needed to rely on old footage. GH just can't be bothered and continues to dig its own grave with sheer arrogance.

[Rakesh]

I didn't see this posted so I posted it. I'm happy that Days is maintaining its viewers. I would love to see Days with a 2.4 or higher.

It is very sad to see 5 soaps hitting low ratings. I hope we don't loose another soap.