Heroes / Heroes Reborn: Discussion Thread

[DavidEvanSmith]

I appreciate all the articles being posted, I just wish more people here would talk about how they PERSONALLY feel about the show's choices. This thread looks like a Heroes media website, not a discussion thread. Are those posting the articles still watching? Have you turned off? If so, why?

I find that when I was watching season one, I'd see an episode and be thinking for hours after about what the episode meant and how dynamics were changed, what I learned, what pieces of the puzzle fell into place. Now, during season three, I find myself just a ball of confusion, trying to make sense of it all.

This whole eclipse mess was SLIGHTLY illuminating, and I suppose it gave a clue to something... I guess the powers are related to the sun as well? And Arthur Petrelli pretty much told the audience that we saw who these people really were deep down, without their powers. I guess that was the point of it? Because now we are back to where we left off two episodes ago, with Mohinder all slimy and disgusting, people repowered and ready for battle, etc. So it was just a two-episode detour from where they've been going this whole time? Just so we could see Claire die? Just so we can find out that Daphne had cerebral palsy? It was kind of a letdown. I was hoping that Daphne's secret was that she was much older and that the old guy in the house in Nebraska or wherever he was was actually her husband, not her father as it appeared, and her speed ability had reversed her aging process. I would have liked that MORE than learning she'd been on crutches her whole life. In the end, I do feel for Daphne more, so I guess that reveal had the desired effect.

I don't get what they are doing with Sylar. Is he good? Is he evil? Is he incapable of shedding his evil side? Is he good deep down, with a hunger that makes him do evil things? Is he a Petrelli? Are the Petrellis using him as Noah Bennet said in the last episode and he's not a Petrelli at all? Does he love Elle, or want to kill her? How is Elle suddenly over that he killed her father and taunted her about it?

What is Claire's issue? Is it abandonment issues because Daddy's always away hunting special people? Is it self-esteem issues because she's not like all the other kids at school? All I know is she just keeps getting mouthier and mouthier and making more stupid choices week after week. Where is her bio mother Meredith while Claire was at death's door? Is she going to learn that the Blue flame Redneck guy (whose name escapes me) is her maternal uncle?

I liked that they made a choice with Tracy Strauss, who seemed to be about self-preservation, which upholds her ice queen status, but then she was back-pedalling, telling Arthur Petrelli that she didn't take orders from him. Didn't she already choose to side with him?!

What's the point of Hiro thinking he's 10 years old? What's the point of Hiro taking Claire to the day when she was given to Noah? It makes NO SENSE to me how any of this is relevant.

I'm not understanding these characters anymore, or able to logically follow their changes in mood or direction like I could in previous seasons. I'm losing my connection to this canvas, and all these rapid-fire twists are just convoluting things, rather than making things more deliciously complicated. When the newest promo said "It's all been building to this moment..." I really couldn't figure out what the hell it's been building towards because none of it really makes sense or follows a linear path. The show is just all over the damn place.

[Toups]

I'm still watching, but I don't feel like posting because I'm not really excited for anything.

I am so hoping the next Chapter will be better.

[JackPeyton]

really?

they killed elle?

wtf.

no.

epic fail.

[Toups]

Did they? Sylar started to kill Elle and then the show ended. I was hoping he would stop. I thought she was going to be Sylar's kid's mommy.

[JackPeyton]

oh well idk i just assumed it.

i hope not.

[applcin]

That's pretty much how I feel. The characters are all over the place, flip-flopping from hero-to-villain-to-hero again (and the other way around with the "villains") and there's too many of them. They keep introducing these pockets of characters (like the ones in New Orleans, Maya and her brother, the villains that got set loose from their cells, the Haitian's brother (wth was the point?). They kill off Niki/Jessica, then we find out she's not just a twin, but a triplet. The Invisible Man comes and goes. The 500 year old Irish Samurai (or whatever he was) comes and goes. Claire's biological mother comes and goes. Angela is evil, no her husband is, no she is, no everybody is cuz they're all lying. Sylar is a Petrelli, no he isn't. Seth Green as the comic book store guy feels like stunt casting, or like somebody hiring a buddy. Mohinder is just boring no matter what shape he's in. Actors whose characters are dead (Takei, McDowell, Eric Roberts) keep coming back. The soaps make more sense than this.

Anyway...I've still been taping it but it's not a "rush and see" feeling for me.

[JackPeyton]

i *LOVED* tonight.

Claire & Hiro were super cute.

Yeah Elle is dead. damn this show. why her? So many more ppl needed to be killed first. Yes im looking at you Mya!

So they sai Sylar isnt Angelas & Arthers son. I wonder if that emans Claire can be Sylars baby daddy?

[Skin]

I think season one was amazing. I was really interested in all of the different storylines. I felt that I could empathsize with the characters because above all everything was rooted in reality. Claire was in high school and she dealt with storylines directed to that: the attempted rape/murder was must see television, Nathan trying to become senator and tango-ing with evil Linderman was must see stuff, Peter learning about his powers was good stuff. Episodes like "The Company Man" provided interesting character studies and analysis. I don't know it just seemed that everything gelled together and just fit and there were very interesting twists that fit as well. I remember when Peter went to see Mohinder and then encountered Sylar and that was an excellent cliff hanger. It was just perfect and everything built on top of another. From the pilot to the season finale.

Season two was really good at building things up and prolonging the excitement and was even good at delivering twists that made sense. However the concept wasn't well executed and it overall fell on a whimper with various storylines that just weren't interesting. It just didn't have a lot of momentum and it lacked a lot of the urgency and excitement season one had.

I feel that season three is the exact opposite. It has great concepts but they move so fast that they don't take the time out to show more indepth and take their time with each plot point. The concepts are great but it's the execution that has it's issues.

I think this is the crutch of the problem as well. Sylar should have been killed after the first season. He was the big bad of season one and they made a huge mistake in carrying him over to season two. Sylar isn't good. He may have been good through the ret-conning they are trying to pull now but he isn't. He was always supposed to be evil. He is capable of shedding his good side when he has people that "love" him as seen with Angela, Aurthur and Elle. But once that love is gone he reverts to evil. Which I hate. He isn't Aurthurs son. He may be Angela's. Who knows.

I never understood how Elle could not hate Sylar for killing her father either.

I don't know. I liked the very beginning about Claire feeling "raped" by Sylar and them going with that but lately they have transgressed that to her feeling abandonded by Noah which isn't nearly as interesting. It would be really good television to watch Claire come to terms with her "rape" and her not feeling human because she can't feel anything. But they don't want to go that far.

Exactly.

[Sylph]

Why hasn't anyone posted the Fuller plan? 

Exclusive: Bryan Fuller's Rx for 'Heroes'

Michael Ausiello

Pushing Daisies fans will probably take a hit out on me for saying this, but something good has come out of the comedy's untimely death: It's freed up Bryan Fuller to rescue Heroes from the villain known as "What the Frak Have They Done to a Once-Great Show?!" In his first interview since rejoining the series as a consultant, the writer-producer-genius behind such acclaimed season 1 hours as "Company Man" reveals where it all went wrong, what it'll take to make it right, and who's gonna have to be sacrificed before that can happen.

AUSIELLO: Where did Heroes go wrong, in your opinion?

BRYAN FULLER: It became too dense and fell into certain sci-fi trappings. For instance, in the “Villains” arc, when you talk about formulas and catalysts, it takes the face off the drama. And I think the goal for everybody is to put a face back on the drama. You have to save something with a face; otherwise you don’t understand what you’re caring about. I thought the "Villains" arc started out very interestingly, and then became sort of muddy and dense and I couldn't get my hooks into the characters to understand their motivations. I also started to feel confused about what people's abilities were. One of the great things about the first season is that the metaphor for their abilities was very clear. Those metaphors seem to have gotten complicated in the past two seasons. I share that concern with everybody on the writing staff. It's not like I'm coming in and saying, "This is what you need to do to fix it!" Everybody knows what needs to be fixed and everybody is sort of rowing in that direction.

Your work starts with episode 19, yes?

Yes. I'm fortunate to be coming into a very exciting story line. [Former co-exec producers] Jeph [Loeb] and Jesse [Alexander], before they left the show, set so many great events in motion with the "Fugitives" arc [kicking off Feb. 2]. It really is a fresh start.

Are the "Fugitives" episodes leading up to 19 solid?

Yes. Episodes 14, 15 and 16 are amazing. The whole "Fugitives" arc starts out very strongly, and then it gets a little dense in the middle in terms of the mythology. So I came in right at the point where everybody was realizing, "Oh, we're getting too dense here and we need to put faces on stories because there is no face to a formula; there is no face to saving the world." So it's turning this big ship back into a character stream, and everyone on the writing staff shares that desire. We need to get back into a character place, because that's where this story started: Very clean, superhero metaphors to everyday life. That's the path that we're taking. But it is a big ship so it's going to take a little while to turn it.

Any plans to trim the sprawling cast?

We're also going to tell fewer stories per episode. We're going to limit it to three or four with one big one that you can wrap the stories around. We're altering the structure of the show so that there's a very clear A story that takes up a larger percentage of the show so that that story gets traction.

Are you looking at Season 4 as a complete reboot of the series?

It's not necessarily a reboot as much as it is going back to the basic spirit of the show and pulling people back in. I don't think the issues with the show have been about the serialization as much as about the density of the stories that have been serialized.  

Will you be part of the show next season?

That's the idea.

Will the recent behind-the-scenes changes at NBC impact the show at all?

It's really hard to imagine Heroes without [universal Media Studios president] Katherine Pope, because she has been such a proponent of the show. She was so instrumental in [setting] the tone and style of the show in the first season. She is as vital a piece as any of the players on the show at this moment. Her contribution can't be undervalued. It'll be very interesting to see how things shake out.

What's your working relationship with series creator Tim Kring been like since returning?

It's actually been very positive.

Who gets final say: you or Tim?

Tim. I’m a consultant. My job is to help facilitate the vision of the show, and the vision has been a little inconsistent. But “Fugitives” is such a great sea change. I think people who have been critical of Heroes will come back.

http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2008/12/exclusive-bryan.html

[Skin]

I heard there relaunching this post Superbowl in hopes for better ratings

[Ben]

The only reason I've never posted before, was because I wasn't sure how many eps we were out of sync with the US. I thought it was one, then it seemed to be two, and I got confused - a feeling that fitted in well with this season!

There wasn't any outstanding moments for me, just a lot of disappointment, mixed with some OK stuff. I liked when the two groups formed, Sylar & Elle, and the ep that integrated scenes from season 1 (even though that was good, it did all feel a little out of place, and slightly pointless to the overall story arc).

I hated the première ep - no show should ever start with the middle of the story, unless they're gonna spin it, and follow it with the beginning. Heroes didn't. We were shoved into the conflict between good and evil at hight speed, with future bad-ass Claire about to kill future Peter, which, by the end of Volume 3, had zero pay off (may be it'll crop up in Volume 4, along with that Hiro/Ando scene). I thought at some point we would return to that moment, but we never did. It was never explained how that scene worked in the grand scheme of the narrative, as all the way through, both Claire and Peter were on the same side. It was totally pointless (unless I missed something?). And why was future Peter, sporting that future-future scar, in the future scene set in the present future of Arthur's scheme? I realize that Arthur's death changed the future, but even if he had lived and succeeded in his plot, how would that have pitted Claire and peter on opposing sides?

Sylar is another aspect of Heroes, that doesn't work. I feel like he's fun his course. He just doesn't come off as threatening as he did in season 1. Sylar is a serial killer, who has no redeeming qualities, yet they keep trying to make it seem as if he does. He kills people for fun, and they still expect viewers to feel sympathy over his paternity puzzle! He's no Dexter. Sylar's flip-flopping aside, I also didn't like Nathan's sudden 180 in supporting Arthur's plan. It seemed too quick and easy - like Elle forgiving Sylar, in the same scene that she's blasting him with high voltage of energy!

Killing off characters with potential - Elle, Meradith...; Deaths that are repetitive and done for shock value - Claire and Sylar (Why? We know they can't die, so what's the point?); Lack of reality - everyone's forgotten their day jobs! Pointless plot points that lead nowhere - The catalyst (seriously, did that serve any real function?), Daphne's secret (doesn't really add anything to her character). ETA: The retcon of Jessica and replacing her with Barbara! Jessica was supposed to be Nikki's twin sister who died (as well as Nikki's alter ego).

I really hope Volume 4 is a major step up from Volume 3. It needs to be.

The ratings over here, have been pretty good. They stayed steady for most of the season on BBC2, up until the final three episodes, where they took a dive. But in contrast, the first run eps that air on BBC3, kept up their momentum. Heroes stayed as BBC3's #1 show, as well as #1 for most of the multi-channel market.

I thought The Office, had been granted the post-Superbowl slot?

[Sylph]

That's a very narrow rule, with which I do not agree at all.

[Ben]

Every time I've seen it done, it's never worked. And until I do, I won't be changing my mind. Unless you have any suggestions of it being done right?

[Skin]

I feel the same way, there was very little to really grab me and force me to remember any real distinct storyline. I feel that part of the problem was that there wasn't really an arc or any real story. It was just we have to stop this from happening and that's it. Nothing was woven together, nothing was truly compelling nor was there anything that made me feel any emotional ties to anyone. I feel everyone is just a pod and that characters could easily be replaced in certaint storylines and to be honest their abilities and their powers just aren't as riverting as they once were. The build up and twists were awful. They had a good premise in my opinon more so then season two, but my God. The execution was just sloppy.

The two groups forming really didn't do much. There wasn't really a battle between the two. More over the teams didn't accomplish or do much of anything. It was all just filler. I hated Sylar/Elle because of the fact that it made no sense. Elle as a character makes no sense because they change the basis of her character multiple times through out the story. When she first came on she was like the sociopathic Barbie, which was interesting. Then they decided to layer her character and give her more of a heart and give her more responsiblity at the beginning of season three and then they back peddled and destroyed her progess by having her step back in to sociopathic pikachu again. Her character had no direction and she was more or less just a plot puppet.

Sylar is another problem in itself. He should have died at the end of season one. Letting him live and then making him a part of the show (a bigger part then was necessary) hurt more then helped. Then making him indestructable, have the same power as Peter, retcon his character, his motivations and then try to make him good was the biggest fumble in the history of the show. I still don't get how that was supposed to work.

The eclipse episode was interesting. I felt that it was supposed to make us care about the characters again with out thier powers. However it didn't really accomplish that task. If anything it only showed how much the show has fallen since the first episode and it doesn't even make sense compared to the other episodes.

I actually thought the opening shot was very well done, It was interesting and pulled the focus from the disaster that was season two. Claire hunting Peter and Peter shooting Nathan was something that was needed to regain interest in the show after the fumble of season two. I will say they did a major bad but not following up on the alternative time line and not showing why and how this conflict and big bad occured. We only got vague answers as to why the alternate time line ended up so screwed up. We never really got an answer to why Claire turned "evil", why Peter was hunted, why Nathan felt compelled to give people powers, why Sylar turned good, ect. We never got an answer to all of the "changes" that took place. We really did need an episode to explain these things and express how the alternate time ended up the way it did.

Another thing how awful was Mohinder's storyline this season?

My guess is that eventually Aruthur would have gotten Claire into his side which would have led to Peter and Claire coming at odds, eventually. But yeah never explicitly said.

I agree. Kring has this issue where he feels the need to flop bad and good characters and then he believes that the characters should still be rootable. Nathan straddles the fence a LOT, in season one we are meant to see him as good but really he is rather ambiguous. In season two he is meant to be seen as good, a hero, the comeback hero. Then in mid season three he is evil again? I mean come on. Which one is he? He can't change this much in such a short amount of time.

I'll do you one better. Killing of characters that have been there since the beginning and don't deserve to be killed off: Isaac, Niki, Ted, D.L., Eden, Candice, ect. I mean why do they have to be killed off. More over if they are important to story and have potential why kill them off at all? I don't feel any love lost for Elle's death but Meredith shouldn't have been killed off.

I agree. However they really need to let Claire grow up, just ditch the cheerleader uniform.

[Sylph]

Ausiello has interesting casting news.

Fugitives begins on February 2nd.