Winchester91

Greatest Soap Cop-Out's.

109 posts in this topic

22 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

This was before my time but I heard that Katherine Chancellor had a relationship with a woman? Whatever became of that? Was Bell eager to forget about it or something? That would seem like a Cop-Out, I don't know about the Greatest or anything...

 

Speaking of which, Adam's duplicitous behavior concerning Rafe. Sharon was the only one who asked him straight out if he was bi-sexual, he denied it and the topic was dropped for burning fetuses in fireplaces.

It may have been interesting if Adam was non-binary but Y&R struggles in writing sexuality of all kinds, but not exploring that seemed like a Cop-Out and a sign that the writers lacked depth and awareness of issues confronting people today.

 

There was a woman on the show named JoAnn Curtis. Her husband Jack (Anthony Herrera) cheated on her with Peggy Brooks. She was obese. She went to live with Katherine and lost a lot of weight. They became very close. I think they may have kissed, and planned a vacation together. Brock was concerned about their relationship because he felt it was another of his mother's unhealthy fixations. I'm not sure how far the story would have gone, but there was a noticeable ratings drop and Bill Bell bowed to the audience's wishes. Brock convinced his mother that she was making a mistake, and JoAnn was packed off somewhere. 

 

The Adam story I wouldn't even call a copout as much as lurid homophobia and biphobia from a shameful hack of a writer. They never had any interest in exploring anything with Adam. They just wanted us to leer and jeer and know that being a true villain meant being willing to sleep with anyone to get what you want. Or, in the case of conservative Y&R, sleeping with - running your thumb over the mouth of a dumbass twink. 

 

I hated so much about that story but what I hated most was Nellie Oleson and friends gushing over Muhney because he was so willing to play such daring scenes. What a bunch of old sh!t. 

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^

I hate how Chris Engen was bashed for not wanting the play these scenes either. As a gay man, I understood and wasn't mad. It made no sense at all for Adam to f-ck Rafe when it was going to go nowhere. 

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4 minutes ago, Nothin'ButAttitude said:

^

I hate how Chris Engen was bashed for not wanting the play these scenes either. As a gay man, I understood and wasn't mad. It made no sense at all for Adam to f-ck Rafe when it was going to go nowhere. 

 

I don't know all that went on behind the scenes with Engen, but I was disgusted by the decision to paint rainbow sparkles all over a Celluloid Closet style horror show just so that the soap "press" could get on their knees for Muhney. Oh how brave...how gutsy...that he MIGHT be willing to do something when I imagine he already knew nothing had been filmed beyond tamer, lamer material than something you'd get in a silent movie. Even if he'd been like Russell Tovey and started jiggling his ass around (I can't even remember if he had an ass), the story was still bigoted trash.

 

MAB led Nellie and Jamey and friends up the garden path with this and the Philip story, and it was embarrassing. It also meant that they were never called out the way they should have been. Say what you will about Bill Bell, he never would have done that to viewers, or to lgbt people.

Edited by DRW50

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3 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

 

I don't know all that went on behind the scenes but I was disgusted by the decision to paint rainbow sparkles all over a Celluloid Closet style horror show just so that the soap "press" could get on their knees for Muhney. Oh how brave...how gutsy...that he MIGHT be willing to do something when I imagine he already knew nothing had been filmed beyond tamer, lamer material than something you'd get in a silent movie. Even if he'd been like Russell Tovey and started jiggling his ass around (I can't even remember if he had an ass), the story was still bigoted trash.

 

I just remember people saying that CE didn't wanna play the scene b/c of his religion or some mess. I think CE later came out and said that had nothing to do with it. I think he stated something along the lines that it made no sense for Adam to do that along with gaslighting Ashley, who was his biggest advocate at the time. 

 

Adam's whole introduction story was garbage. Making him a sociopath was the worst thing ever. Adam should've been a corporate tycoon at the most. 

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2 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

I really have to praise ATWT for mostly humanizing their villains.  During the Marland years, he illustrated that even popular characters could occasionally descend into villainy.


One thing that I was really able appreciate from the first time I was able to rewatch the early years of RH on Soapnet was that the "villains" weren't evil, monstrous people. They weren't committing murder, taking hostages, torturing, etc. (Well, except for Kenneth Castle because he obsessed over Faith...and even then, he thought he could protect her and get her to love him.) They were basically just people whose motives and desires put them in conflict with other characters. Even though you could pick out who were supposed to be the heroes and who were supposed to be the spoilers or threats, all of them were essentially everyday people trying to figure out how to get what they wanted. Nobody had all-knowing abilities or was necessarily wanting to inflict harm to people. Characters like Roger and Delia resorted to lies and blackmail for personal gain and not to be sadistic. Jack, ostensibly more hero than villain, had so much emotional baggage he acted like a class-A jerk. Seneca was basically a good man who wasn't above trying to exert control. Joe (#1) was so charming and fell so hard for Siobhan, all the while lying to everyone about his and uncle's business. Alongside them you have the supposed "good guys" who come with their own flaws, like extramarital relationships (Frank & Jill), a "salt of the Earth" Irish Catholic family whose staunch beliefs led to some harsh attitudes with their own children. Nobody was perfect, or perfectly evil. They were human.

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A few others: 

 

- Josh on ATWT. As already mentioned in the ATWT thread. I didn't have a problem with him becoming a better person or finding love with Meg, but Iva never should have accepted their relationship or gone to their wedding. It should have been a real issue. 

 

- gay men and AIDS. One might say it would have been a stereotype, but soaps not wanting to risk offending Lurlene in Tuscaloosa, or wherever, by having anyone but a pure ingenue suffering from AIDS meant that a lot of rich material and educational material was lost. There were gay men in support groups or as dressers for Lucy Coe or mentioned offcamera as love interests for gay characters, but the first time I can remember seeing an actual gay man actually dying of AIDS was on AMC in early 1995 - 12 years after this epidemic started and 11 or 12 years after the first mentions were made on daytime via Loving. 

 

- acting your age. Soaps stopped letting older characters mature sometime in the early '90s, and it decimated the genre. I'm not sure if any soap showcases this better than Y&R and B&B, where refusal to let characters mature, or in some cases, actually regressing them to where they never were even in their youngest years oncanvas, laid waste to characters like Brooke, Taylor, Victor, Sharon, Victoria, and Nick, among others. I'm not sure if anything could be more embarrassing than middle-aged Brooke and Taylor squawking like schoolgirls.

 

- rape and baby death/infertility stories in place of actually writing challenging material for women. AMC in particular dug its own grave with this. 

 

- DAYS Jack and rape. As tacky and sexist as it was to have Jennifer raped so that Jack could experience a woman he loved being raped, one scene stood out - when she rejected his advances and, when he didn't get the message (as he didn't know she'd been raped), she shouted "Stay away from me, you rapist!" and slapped him. Jack realized he could never escape his past. It was great work from both Melissa Reeves and Matthew Ashford. This duality in Jack should never have left the character, but instead the show just made him either a generic piece of ass (when Ashford wasn't there) or a clown (when Ashford was there). 

Edited by DRW50

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I'd say Douglas Marland on ATWT not making Darryl Crawford, Caroline's killer, and changing it midstory. Saying that it would be a repeat of Frannie falling for another psycho path.

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RH: Delia regressions.

 

The show did this over and over and over again, because it was easier and could drive plot for the "good" main characters. They had spent several years maturing Delia and then took all that away in order to have her scheme against Faith and be an obstacle for the tedious Faith/Frank pairing. The sight of sanctimonious, self-righteous Barry, Faith and Roger lording it over Delia just made me hate all three characters (especially since Barry and Roger were a big reason why she became what she was), which I can't imagine was the intent of the writing. And making this even worse is that saintly "good" Faith went on to be nastier and cruder to Jill than Delia ever was when she finally realized Frank was never actually in love with her. Yet no one said a word to Faith, because the writing could never see Faith as anything but a victim, even though KMG was unable to play that aspect of the character. 

 

And then when Ilene Kristen returned in 1982 the show soon did this again, this time with Frank and Jill. Is it any wonder viewers weren't interested by this point? 

Edited by DRW50

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Also,the ageism of either dropping over 50 characters, putting them on the back burner or ptops for the young characters.

 

Previously the older people had a point of view and substance,even if they were in support.

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19 hours ago, Nothin'ButAttitude said:

Going back, I'd say ATWT for not exploring Luke and Kevin at the height of that serial killer arc. There was just too much sexual tension between those 2 that it bugged me how Kevin was written off, then later brought back for stupid a** college campaign rigging story. They should've had Kevin emerge as bisexual and made him an interloper to Luke/Noah. 

 

Yes.  Especially because, IMO, Jake Silbermann (Noah) was a terrible actor and clearly uncomfortable with "playing gay."

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Goutman/Pissy not ending with a Reid/Luke pairing...instead killing off Reid.

22 minutes ago, Khan said:

 

Yes.  Especially because, IMO, Jake Silbermann (Noah) was a terrible actor and clearly uncomfortable with "playing gay."

Yes and yes...has he even had any more work since his ATWT days? Same for VH....doing low budget crap films.

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I think dropping the gay characters on OLTL was a huge cop-out.

 

on GH- it was pretty clear the show was implying Brenda and Dante had been a couple.  I know Vanessa was fighting against it, but they copped out of telling the story that was airing.

 

The text message killer being Diego was terrible too.  

 

And whatever was the original story of Laura and the attic and Rick before Genie quit.  It seemed like Rick was going to take over the hospital and have a much longer arc, and possibly also have molested Laura.  But we got crazy Laura and dead Rick instead.

 

Also- why bring Lesley back to life to do nothing with her?  I mean she's never had a story since.  Great to see her, but nothing of depth.

 

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1 hour ago, Nothin'ButAttitude said:

Adam's whole introduction story was garbage. Making him a sociopath was the worst thing ever. Adam should've been a corporate tycoon at the most. 

 

I think that -- and not necessarily the fact that Justin Hartley has moved on -- is the reason why Sally Sussman responded the way she did when Michael Logan asked her about possibly bringing back Adam.  I think SS is just as disgusted as we are about how Adam had turned out.

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39 minutes ago, Khan said:

 

Yes.  Especially because, IMO, Jake Silbermann (Noah) was a terrible actor and clearly uncomfortable with "playing gay."

 

I didn't get that impression though. :ph34r: I loved Nuke!! :wub::lol:

4 minutes ago, Khan said:

 

I think that -- and not necessarily the fact that Justin Hartley has moved on -- is the reason why Sally Sussman responded the way she did when Michael Logan asked her about possibly bringing back Adam.  I think SS is just as disgusted as we are about how Adam had turned out.

 

Good. I hope she remains disgusted. Adam just ought to remain dead. 

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6 minutes ago, Nothin'ButAttitude said:

 

 

I didn't get that impression though. :ph34r: I loved Nuke!! :wub::lol:

 

I believe someone on this board went to one of ATWT gatherings and pretty much said that Jake was very quiet and to himself and not very interested in the fan gathering.

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