Israel, Gaza, and Palestine

[JaneAusten]

This is a thread to discuss the current situation and past history in Israel and Gaza - Please be respectful and kind.

[JaneAusten]

To start off, I wanted to leave this link of the Pod Save America broadcast where former President Obama discussed this. And it got me thinking a lot more about the issue.  The discussion on Gaza starts at around 15:15. IMO it is worth a listen if you have not heard this before.  

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This is also the article from the Times referencing his words spoken in this podcast.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/04/us/politics/obama-israel-palestine.html?unlocked_article_code=1.RU0.rbjt.o3aIGjaD1Tyn&smid=url-share

Edited January 29, 2024 by JaneAusten

[AdelaideCate007]

As a Jewish person with family in Israel and as a person on the left politically, I find this to be an almost impossible situation and torn between two sides. I'm not a fan of the current Israel government at all, but I do want Israel to exist. I *hate* the bombing and destruction in Gaza. I understand having to get rid of Hamas and support that. But I feel like we've gone way past that now and I'm finding it very hard to rationalise most of the extreme response. Self defense and trying to save hostages is one thing, but I don't understand the endgame of just levelling the place to the ground. I also find the rampant antisemitism and anti-zionism stuff I'm seeing both in real life and online to be incredibly hard to deal with. I can't speak for in the Us, but it's gotten bad in Australia. Zionist becoming synonymous with basically anyone who is Jewish or shows even vague support for the Jews and/or Israel is disheartening to say the least. I'll always be on the left politically but I will admit that most online leftist have done a great job of making me, and I imagine others in the same situation, feel isolated from that side of the political spectrum recently. 

I don't know what the answer to the conflict is, other than some sort of shared land. Iran will never let that happen so here we are. I was always raised to pray for peace for both Israel and Palestine and to hope for a two state solution. I hope at some point we can get there without both sides bombing each other into oblivion. I do want a ceasefire as long as the hostages are part of that deal. Netanyahu has also got to go. He's completely to blame for the current situation. Obviously though a lot of people for decades though share in the blame. 

I'll refrain from posting to much more for now as of now because I don't want be the one that sets the tone of the thread because I hope to see a lot of other perspectives.

[JaneAusten]

Thank you for sharing.  

I believe we feel very much the same.  I am also an advocate for peace. but I can't think of one individual who could help broker a peace deal. Maybe Pope Francis. But we also have parties not interested in peace. The Israeli gvmt and of course Hamas and it's chaos agents in the Middle East certainly are not.

I've been doing a lot of reading about the attempts in more recent years to negotiate a peace agreement. Starting with the Carter Administration, through the Clinton Administration attempts, to the assassination of Yitzahk Rabin in 2005, who was advocating for peace at the time. Much of what transpired includes things I didn't know.  I read Richard Helmicks book. He was one of the mediators with the Clinton Admin and it has been enlightening. Of course, the book is from his perspective so that has to be taken into account. I share some of what he shared in another post.

I thought President Biden's warnings initially to Israelis was genuine. He expressed his horror at what happened but also warned them not to make the mistake of the US after 9/11. I fear that is happening. And it's bringing up memories of everything the US did wrong.  I can understand the anger and fear Israeli citizens have at this time. We all had it here after 9/11. Our feelings were exploited and I do believe the Israeli gvmt is doing the same thing. The worse part is that none of what's happening will make them safer.

The comparisons to 9/11 is valid. This was a relatively simple attack. I don't mean easy I mean not sophisticated. They had a basic plan that didn't involve any high tech, high powered technology and weapons. I don't know. Maybe that is why the Israeli gvmt did not take the warnings seriously.

My own feelings are Netanyahu needs to go. I believe that would go a long way in appeasing so many out there critical of Israel and he failed his main job, protecting Israeli citizens. Now he's attacking families of the hostages.  His popularity since the protests has not rebounded and maybe it might alleviate the concern some have, that he's prolonging this to salvage his political career. And he's now attacking hostage families.  Finally, a coalition of Israeli leaders have come forward to demand his resignation. Hoping that starts a swell of support.

Netanyahu must be removed, say top former Israeli national security officials | CNN

[Khan]

I want to thank @AdelaideCate007 and @JaneAusten for sharing their thoughts and information as well.

I agree with @AdelaideCate007: this is an almost impossible situation, with neither party, IMO, willing to forge some sort of compromise that, if nothing else, would bring a halt to the carnage and allow for the release of all hostages, as well as allow for ongoing humanitarian aid to Israeli and Palestinian citizens who remain in Gaza.  And I definitely agree with @JaneAusten that the parallels between what's happening now over there and what happened here in the U.S. in the aftermath of 9/11 are striking, too.  In many ways, 9/11 and its' aftermath set the stage for the political turmoils that engulf our nation to this day. 

And to me, that's part of the problem with our country's response to this crisis: thanks to forces both on the far-right and the far-left, we've become so polarized that we've reduced everything to a level of, "You're either with us, or you're against us;" while those who are in the middle and are seeking consensus and compromise in the name of preserving peace wind up being ostracized altogether, spat upon and labelled as sell-outs and traitors.

I agree.

[JaneAusten]

This is an excellent point. Part of the problem is our media ecosystem I believe that focuses on the extremes not the norms and they go a long way in helping and making money off of polarization. And this is across the board.

I want to hear more from reasonable people. I believe most people in general feel as we all do. We want peace. I wonder how many do including many in this country who are in the pockets of the arms industry and other special interests. And where is it getting us.  If you read on how empires ended, the United States is still all over being the police officer of the world, not successfully in recent years, is how empires end. I will make a controversial statement. There is a reason peacemakers in general have a history of being killed and that's around the world. They are a threat to the current world order IMO.

[JaneAusten]

This is interesting. Not certain I believe it. The Beltway press has a tendency to print stories that are not verified and are always anonymous sources.  I hope so. Time will tell.

State Department reviewing options for recognition of Palestinian state (axios.com)

[DramatistDreamer]

An Op-Ed written by a former hostage of the October 7th attack offering an interesting and insightful perspective. You should be able to access this article freely.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/01/opinion/gaza-war-holocaust-shoah.html

 

[DRW50]

I've seen a number of people, often peddled on the "mainstream" channels, who insist that it doesn't matter if Trump wins or if terrible things happen following his win because the situation in Gaza is so much worse. There is now an idea commonplace among many on the left, at least online, that all roads lead back to this one issue and any sacrifice must be made. I feel like a lot of people who are struggling mentally are being preyed on to further this narrative.

This martyrdom seems to be leading to more and more toxic levels and preying on people who are struggling, like the man who self-immolated yesterday in front of the Israeli Embassy, or the man in this article. The more that these actions are cheered and validated, the more I worry about how far people are going to go:

 

[Vee]

I think for some elements of the online left that's true. But to be brutally frank, a lot of them didn't vote anyway. Therefore I don't believe Dem turnout is going to be materially affected on this issue. And yes, I think too many people are being preyed on and manipulated counter to their health and wellbeing, which is entirely separate.

I do think the med strike, the self-immolation etc. are all horrific and not solutions. My feelings still mirror many of Adelaide's about this ugly, sad time which is why I generally have ceased engaging with the issue entirely online.

Edited February 26, 2024 by Vee

[DramatistDreamer]

Vice President Kamala Harris gave an evenhanded speech, imo on the Edmund Pettis Bridge about the Israeli Hamas war and what needs to be done. Will her admonitions be heard? I don’t know.
Thinking about all of this and the nature of conflict, particularly armed conflict, it really strengthens my belief that Dr. Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela were extraordinary individuals. King was an unfailing advocate for nonviolent action in the face of constant threats and inhumane treatment. Nelson Mandela, was one of the main proponents for the ANC turning away from armed struggle in the face of the brutality of apartheid. I realize more and more how difficult that must of been and what discipline it must have taken to go down this path. Of course, it took decades and still the ultimate goals have yet to be fulfilled but both movements realized that armed conflict would have made those objectives even harder to achieve.

[JaneAusten]

The speech was extroadinary and obviously designed for this occasion. She said out loud what Biden I believe has wanted to say for months. Couple this with Benny Gantz, Bibi's opponent and current member of the Israeli war cabinet visiting DC and specifically meeting with VP Harris.  Netanyahu has not been invited to DC and refused to sanction or pay for Gantz's visit. Childish.

The non peaceful protests of those men and include Ghandi and many others over the centuries says so much about that strategy. But lets not kid ourselves, all the actions of peace have not worked and many of those involved like Ghandi, MLK, heck even through in Jesus whether you believe in him as the savior or simply Jesus of Nazareth, so many of their own lives ended in tragedy. I do wonder what MLK's trajectory would have been had he lived. Sadly he was not destined to.

[DramatistDreamer]

MLK’s popularity was at an all time low before he was assassinated. This is something that Americans in general do not like to admit. His stance on the Vietnam War, as well as his highlighting of America’s lack of will and general hypocrisy regarding diminishing poverty made him very unpopular.  
The ANC is probably a better equivalent of a political organization that once embraced, then abandoned armed struggle because the leaders knew that bombing and shooting were not going to shift anyone (except maybe the most extreme) over to sympathize with them and their struggle. One of the reasons why I mentioned how much in awe I am in MLK and Mandela specifically has to do with their sacrifice and discipline, realizing that few would subject themselves to putting their lives at risk for a greater good. It’s ever more clear how few would take this path.

Gandhi, yes, I know his passive resistance movement was very much the inspiration for the 20th century Civil Rights movement but for me, as a Black person, Gandhi is a bit of …I have some ambivalence where he is concerned. He held some very distasteful views, namely his views on Blacks and women, of which I am both.

[JaneAusten]

Ghandi yes had some very distasteful views although I thought his views on Africans changed as he aged. That belief is controversial. I know he championed womens rights but then didn't change much in respect to women in his private life so who knows. It does sadden me that his vision for a secular democracy in India came to fruition to where is it now with many Hindi Nationalists now in control, spitting on his idea of democracy.

[brockreynolds]

I'm gobsmacked at the amount of people in the gay community who support Palestine on this issue. Seriously? A culture that throws gay people off of roofs, you are going to stan for? The fact that Hamas is the one who started this is reason enough for me not to support them in any way. AS far as Gaza? I guess the moral of that story is don't choose a homeland that is a barren desert without the capability of supporting human life.