This episode features a bunch of Tiffany related scenes that frame the context of the Sean and Tiffany scenes in the June 14th episode:

Sean and Jessica had just begun their affair and I believe Sean insinuates to someone that he was using the relationship with Jessica in order to ensure he could continue his unorthodox methods involving Felicia / Mac / Ryan, which we see culminate at the end of the episode when you have Jessica inform the hospital crew (all of whom are in on the scheme except Ryan) that Felicia is dead. 

I enjoyed Tiffany's crash out over losing custody of Lucas leading to the drinking and DUI that is blatantly referenced and the pill popping which was set up in this episode. It's definitely a darker turn for a more light hearted character. I think @carolineg shared some insights on why they also don't love it. I think the biggest issue I have is these stories need to spend enough time with the redemption arc, which we never really get with Tiffany and Sean. Jessica dies in early September 1993, I believe, only weeks before Labine arrives. The natural conclusion should have been Tiffany and Sean raising Jessica and Sean's child wondeirng if Jessica's genetics would influence it. 

I think emphasizing that Tiffany is so uncentered at the start of the dead Felicia scheme that she was missing meetings with Lucas helped to justify Jessica's demands, which Sean also agrees with by the end of the April 23 episode when chatting with Tony. 

3 hours ago, titan1978 said:

Jane is just so good. This is the type of character defining dialogue we got all the time in the Riche era, especially the earlier years when she was figuring things out. I know this was Levinson, but the Labine team also wrote these long, detailed scenes that really let each character have a voice and a point of view.

When I watch Tracy in this time period, what strikes me the most is that if Edward had believed in her when it came to business and ELQ, or even loved her without conditions, she wouldn’t have been so destructive. Jane played a lot of this period with Tracy as kind of a walking wound, and that pain was used to lash out at everyone. I actually liked Jenny Eckert, and even I wasn’t upset she ran her down.

I think soap writing ultimately has two lanes- writers and producers that look at how much they have to produce and they either think how lucky to have all this time with episodes every day to really explore each character. Or the other side is how in the hell are we going to fill up all this time? The second lane uses things like excessive flashbacks, gimmicks, and purely plot driven story dragged out without any character development around it.

I know that Elliot and Riche didn't see eye to eye, but that never came across on screen to me. Tracy is such a layered character in that period. I definitely see a lot of the open wound, but I also think that her intelligence was often so overlooked by the general canvas. There are moments during the summer of 1992 where she has deduced that Tracy has deduced that Paul and Jenny spent the night together at the lighthouse during the blackout and that Ned and Julia spent the night at the Port Charles Hotel together. There's almost nothing she can do about either situation because her marriage is so precarious and the pain just sits below the surface. 

The writing in general under these early Riche years is just phenomenal. Another great Tracy and Monica playing nice scene from shortly after Dillon was born. I appreciate the fact that you have so many emotions playing out in the course of a single scene and how this scene, like their final scene, echos how each woman has different levels of turmoil in their life and that they don't really have to be each other's enemy:

 

38 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

I enjoyed Tiffany's crash out over losing custody of Lucas leading to the drinking and DUI that is blatantly referenced and the pill popping which was set up in this episode. It's definitely a darker turn for a more light hearted character. I think @carolineg shared some insights on why they also don't love it. I think the biggest issue I have is these stories need to spend enough time with the redemption arc, which we never really get with Tiffany and Sean. Jessica dies in early September 1993, I believe, only weeks before Labine arrives. The natural conclusion should have been Tiffany and Sean raising Jessica and Sean's child wondeirng if Jessica's genetics would influence it. 

I think emphasizing that Tiffany is so uncentered at the start of the dead Felicia scheme that she was missing meetings with Lucas helped to justify Jessica's demands, which Sean also agrees with by the end of the April 23 episode when chatting with Tony. 

It's funny you mention them raising her baby because as a kid, I remember thinking that's where it was going. Like another Monica and Jason scenario.

Thank you to everyone for the flashbacks.

@dc11786That Monica/Tracy scene is exquisite. It gets to the heart of what Tracy and Monica should have been - women who understood and respected each other, even if they didn't like each other. We would often get the bones of the idea over the years, but usually with insults - none of that here. 

Jane's work in that whole exit story is incredible any time I watch another glimpse. 

I'm actually glad I never saw any of this before I saw Tracy on The City as I would have been so disappointed. This is the best writing I've ever seen for Tracy and Jane's best work. We get this vulnerability with Tracy now, at times, but it took the decimation of much of the Q family to make it happen.

7 hours ago, titan1978 said:

I think soap writing ultimately has two lanes- writers and producers that look at how much they have to produce and they either think how lucky to have all this time with episodes every day to really explore each character. Or the other side is how in the hell are we going to fill up all this time? The second lane uses things like excessive flashbacks, gimmicks, and purely plot driven story dragged out without any character development around it.

This really sums it up. Most soap content tends to feel like filling up time, especially now that we've gone into years and years of territory where TPTB are probably surprised their shows are even still on. It's also a consequence of having to fill up 30+ minutes of time 5 days a week. That 92-96 period may be the last time GH was able to do so. 

These 90s clips are great.

In keeping with the spirit of things I decided to go on what I thought might be a more difficult quest and find a half-decent, nuanced scene with Tracy and Monica in recent years. Too often in the 21st century they would go from either being at each other's throats all the way up to 11 to being totally anodyne and bland or characterless.

These scenes, from 2017 (a dismal period I wasn't really watching), are pretty amiable albeit nowhere near as layered as the earlier stuff. They're also very breezy and fun as there's a sense Jane and Leslie may not be totally sticking to the script. Particularly in the second clip with Tracy reading Larry's letter.

 

Edited September 22Sep 22 by Vee

@Vee Thanks for taking time to find those. You're right, they are likeable scenes, and they definitely seemed to be playing around with the dialogue by the end. 

Funny to hear Tracy saying she wanted another grandchild, just not one tied to the Jeromes. She got her wish (well, a great-grandchild). 

Edited September 22Sep 22 by DRW50

I was going through a few old files from videos that were once on Youtube but aren't anymore - some had old soap promos I couldn't find elsewhere on Youtube. If this is new to you, I hope the Sonny/Brenda fans enjoy it as it must be one of their first promos.

 

11 hours ago, dc11786 said:

I know that Elliot and Riche didn't see eye to eye, but that never came across on screen to me. Tracy is such a layered character in that period. I definitely see a lot of the open wound, but I also think that her intelligence was often so overlooked by the general canvas. There are moments during the summer of 1992 where she has deduced that Tracy has deduced that Paul and Jenny spent the night together at the lighthouse during the blackout and that Ned and Julia spent the night at the Port Charles Hotel together. There's almost nothing she can do about either situation because her marriage is so precarious and the pain just sits below the surface. 

I didn't know Riche and Elliot had issues.  Do you know why?  I assume it was the Paul/Jenny/Tracy triangle which felt demeaning to Tracy, but I am curious if that was the issue.  I thought the triangle was winding down by the time Riche came on board.  It's possible I am confusing my timelines though.

2 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I was going through a few old files from videos that were once on Youtube but aren't anymore - some had old soap promos I couldn't find elsewhere on Youtube. If this is new to you, I hope the Sonny/Brenda fans enjoy it as it must be one of their first promos.

 

Thank you for that promo!  It had to be the first Sonny/Brenda promo and it's sort of a non-promo lol. It's just the two of them flirting and Jagger being judge-y.  Given the fact that most of these clips are some of their first interactions it appears GH immediately got behind the pairing.

4 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I didn't know Riche and Elliot had issues.  Do you know why?

I know Riche and Jane clashed over a story in this period - some social issue about abortion or Jenny's past or something? I don't remember the specific angle but it was something Jane didn't agree with Tracy being against.

Edited September 22Sep 22 by Vee

11 minutes ago, Vee said:

I know Riche and Jane clashed over a story in this period - some social issue about abortion or Jenny's past or something? I don't remember the specific angle but it was something Jane didn't agree with Tracy being against.

Oh, yes. I remember hearing that in this thread I think.  Thanks for the reminder.  I think it was about abortion now that you say that.   I honestly could almost see 80's or early 90's Tracy being against abortion, but I understand Jane pushing back.

My mind went to the Jenny/Paul/Tracy story which I did think make Tracy look very desperate at times and it was a bit unbelievable she would consider someone like Jenny a rival.  Paul wasn't worth it (and I am not even talking about the fairly recent retcon with Burgi).

In the story Tracy was very anti-choice, and Jane didn’t agree with that interpretation of her character and didn’t like that she wasn’t listened to. Riche even commented that sometimes the actors want their personal beliefs to be the same as their characters, and that doesn’t make for good story when exploring these topical issues. It was the height of the anti-choice movement as far as mass media attention, clinics were being bombed and protests were very heavy in the US. I can see why in that moment in time Jane felt strongly that she not present that kind of characterization.

To me, Tracy was very judgmental and had good reason to dislike Jenny. She was also presented as conservative and very old money, so it didn’t stand out as being off.

However serious the beef was, Riche didn’t extend any return invitations to Jane. Her brief return in 1996 was mandated by ABC to refresh the audience on Tracy and give her a set up for taking over The City.

Like many fans, watching Tiffany have such a dark turn was rough to see. I think it could have been more successful had this happened when Labine arrived. Although there is a lot of the Riche/Levinson period I love, his writing was also very trashy and sensationalistic in many ways, and not kind towards the women. Nothing as vile and openly misogynistic as Guza and JFP, but still pretty gross.

I cannot fault Sharon Wyatt. She really went there, but the show’s writing didn’t do a good enough job building her back up after.

33 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

In the story Tracy was very anti-choice, and Jane didn’t agree with that interpretation of her character and didn’t like that she wasn’t listened to. Riche even commented that sometimes the actors want their personal beliefs to be the same as their characters, and that doesn’t make for good story when exploring these topical issues. It was the height of the anti-choice movement as far as mass media attention, clinics were being bombed and protests were very heavy in the US. I can see why in that moment in time Jane felt strongly that she not present that kind of characterization.

To me, Tracy was very judgmental and had good reason to dislike Jenny. She was also presented as conservative and very old money, so it didn’t stand out as being off.

Exactly.  It doesn't feel strange for Tracy to feel that way at that time.  I absolutely can understand why Jane wanted to play Tracy pro-choice or for her wanting Tracy to stay out of the argument all together.  Unfortunately, she was the most likely character in that quad to have those views.  It actually would have played perfectly if Tracy had those views and when Lulu and Dillon were in that situation she reconsidered, but I doubt the show was playing a 20 year long game with Tracy at that point lol.

While I understand the reasoning for ABC bringing Tracy back in 1996, I don't exactly think it made the character look good.  The racists remarks to Justus, looking down on pregnant Lois for her background, trying to steal ELQ and Jax from Brenda, and seeming like she was raising Dillon to be a spoiled brat wasn't great.

That all being said, I did like her brief return lol.

16 minutes ago, carolineg said:

While I understand the reasoning for ABC bringing Tracy back in 1996, I don't exactly think it made the character look good.  The racists remarks to Justus, looking down on pregnant Lois for her background, trying to steal ELQ and Jax from Brenda, and seeming like she was raising Dillon to be a spoiled brat wasn't great.

That all being said, I did like her brief return lol.

Her first return was more successful, because even during Monty 2 she had more layers. That pop-up sort of established her as kind of brat, leaning much more into snob and elitist. Which is not to say those qualities didn’t exist before, because they did. Her return to usher Dillon onto the show and eventual return for Tracy herself used that persona as the basis for her character, with a huge helping of cynicism sprinkled on top.

When you watch a lot of her original run, Tracy is a manipulative bitch, and much more evil than her later runs. Famously she was willing to let her beloved daddy die over the will! She’s catty, and cunning. But she also is betrayed by the men in her life and lacks agency in a way Monica doesn’t, because Monica got to use her talents in a way that enhanced her life and gave her purpose.

@vetsoapfan @depboy As far as GH was concerned, was the Samantha Livingstone character always on the back burner?  Future Friday the 13th: The Final Chapter star Kimberly Beck had a brief stint as Samantha in 1975.  Future Small Wonder regular Marla Pennington succeeded Beck as Samantha, but she was let go along with a bunch of other GH cast members in early 1976.  I presume that most (if not all) of the GH episodes featuring the Samantha Livingstone character have been "wiped."  *sigh*

Edited September 22Sep 22 by FlyRightOrchestraGuy