36 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

 

@EricMontreal22 I definitely see what you mean about ATWT and GL (and I agree that the other P&G soaps don't seem quite as stuck in a theme from the scraps we have of them in that period). What's around of Search, AW, or Edge are a bit more current for the time period. 

 

Right.  I suppose ATWT and GL are the two soaps that are most identified with Irna, so it makes sense that they'd hold on to that classic Irna feeling the most (even if this ATWT I guess was immediately after Irna's disastrous return as HW.)

I love Anthony Crivello due to his musical theatre work--I was 13 when I saw him in Kiss of the Spider Woman and he's one of my fave voices on a half dozen cast albums I know.  I really think he's one of the best modern leading men Broadway has produced.  And it was only when I got to email him about an obscure musical he did that I was presenting on for a conference (the 1965 Arthur Laurents/Richard Rodgers/Stephen Sondheim hidden gem Do I Hear a Waltz?--Crivello was in the premier of the revised version in Pasadena in 2001) that I suddenly put two and two together that he was Johnny Dee!!  (granted, Johnny Dee was two years before my time, but over the years I had seen enough of him that I shoulda put two and two together...)

9 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Have y'all seen "Tomorrow 1975 Looks at Soap Operas" the very late night talk show Tom Snyder hosted on NBC for years & this one night when he did a serious look at the soaps at that time with guests Mary Stuart, Joe Stuart, Agnes Nixon & a woman who ran a very early recapping service?

(I have it at my usual video hosting site if anyone has not.)

I saw some of it years back...  How do I access this site?

6 hours ago, TheyStartedOnSoaps said:

I'm new here but I also want to say "Welcome Back" Eric - as I have read past posts by you and (as a fellow Canadian) wondered, where did you go?

Awww Where in Canada are you?

2 hours ago, BetterForgotten said:

To be fair, I do think the production for DAYS in the 60's/70's was also quite cotemporary for the time (and much more than ABC actually) from what I've seen. 

And welcome back @EricMontreal22!

Yes, but DAYS wasn't a P&G soap I agree though that it always seemed quite contemporary, something Bell certainly was influenced by when he conceived of (with Conboy) Y&R.  The Bell style of soap always fascinates me, because from the way I see it you can see the Irna Phillips classic soap--and then how her two proteges Bell and Nixon took aspects of her "classic" soap opera she had finetuned but each took different aspects and went in different directions with it.  And then, of course, P&G felt in many ways that they had to play catch up with BOTH of those.

Thanks everyone for the welcome (backs!)  It's nice to be back

17 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I saw some of it years back...  How do I access this site?

I'm trying not to post links so I do descriptions instead. The video hosting site is rumble dot com & the acct name is shallotpeel & the title of the video is  "Tomorrow 1975 Looks at Soap Operas" & it won't be hard to find. 🤔🙄😉😬Promise. But, if you have a strong preference to be linked, just PM me. I'm only trying to avoid using links in public space, not private. 

17 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

Yes, but DAYS wasn't a P&G soap

Boy, is that ever true!!! 🤣🙃

17 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I agree though that it always seemed quite contemporary, something Bell certainly was influenced by when he conceived of (with Conboy) Y&R.  The Bell style of soap always fascinates me, because from the way I see it you can see the Irna Phillips classic soap--

I think it is very very interesting that Irna was involved in the creation of 2 soaps that were each in dire danger of early cancellation & she had two proteges & Agnes saved AW & Bill Bell saved DAYS. I get that James Lipton says he was the third person Irna was developing but I just find that too ludicrous. I just cannot give that credence. 

17 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

and then how her two proteges Bell and Nixon took aspects of her "classic" soap opera she had finetuned but each took different aspects and went in different directions with it.  And then, of course, P&G felt in many ways that they had to play catch up with BOTH of those.

Interesting. Is there more to this idea?

 

12 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

I think it is very very interesting that Irna was involved in the creation of 2 soaps that were each in dire danger of early cancellation & she had two proteges & Agnes saved AW & Bill Bell saved DAYS. I get that James Lipton says he was the third person Irna was developing but I just find that too ludicrous. I just cannot give that credence. 

Interesting. Is there more to this idea?

 

I joined Rumble and found you!  Thank you, looking forward to checking the videos out, and certainly looking forward to revisiting this episode of Tomorrow.

James Lipton is a joke.  My number 1 love and where my work focus has been is on Broadway musicals (I teach a Sondheim history course) and James Lipton has infamously had several disastrous attempts at Broadway musicals.  Like much of his soap writing, I think the man was a hack who was never very good at anything he attempted to do (obviously I never saw his acting on GL so maybe he actually could act).  Certainly, he earned his name as a soap killer IMHO.  What he WAS good at was self promotion and making people think he knew his stuff--an image that he polished with the creation of Inside the Actors' Studio where he seemed like an authority just because he was talking to so many greats.

BUT my idea about how Bell and Nixon both took separate aspects of the Irna soap and then took off from there goes to just what you were saying actually how Bell saved Irna's (well as co-creator) Days and Nixon saved Another World.  I think even if you look at HOW Nixon "fixed" AW and how Bell "fixed" DAYS you can see the start of how they were going off in two different directions.

I love the bit in Wakefield's All Her Children where Dan is having dinner at Nixon's home and he talks about how her daughter brings up a new soap that is also targeting a youth viewership (obviously Young and the Restless) and the daughter says there's one storyline on it (something to do with a gun?  I can't remember) that is ripping off a story her mom has written for AMC (I think, it may have been OLTL).  And Agnes Nixon is quoted as replying she knows the writer of that show and thinks he is extremely good, and that it isn't a rip off because he will have his own stylistic take on a similar idea.

Per our discussion in the Loving thread (somehow) re: Malone's eras:

And of course you're completely right that the Gothic element, while I'd argue not the focus, was always prevalent during the first run--Hell, I think if it wasn't Billy Douglas that got me watching it was the whole "Max/Luna/Death" storyline.

And there's stuff even earlier still - not just the (IIRC) "cursed" Egyptian jewels I mentioned in the other thread that Alex, Cain and Tina vie for (an echo of not just Bourbon Street/AW but the far stupider Bahdra diamond stuff in 2003), but also Luna guiding Tina through 'visions' of her past life with Cord as a pirate, etc. as early as fall '91, and Kevin's wild visions of Lee Ann around the same time. Then you have the famed Midsummer Night's Dream coda episodes with Megan's ghost in spring '92 as well, and probably more I haven't seen yet.

Finally, the day after Megan dies in February '92, they go so far as to show an extended flashback to Starship Heaven with Virgil the angel. When Viki looks up in the hospital room back in '92, Virgil is right there in the doorway. He says one word ("Victoria") and it's implicit why he is there and who he has come for. She blinks and instead of Virgil, Clint is there and the news is out. I don't think Virgil appears again in that episode, or ever again. It was brilliant.

We're so fortunate most of this is now becoming completely available - I sure didn't know Brenda McGillis still had a little story arc with Wanda's health issues as late as fall '91 under Malone and Griffith, and you can see them figuring out when to bring back Christopher Cousins after his brief Rauch-era arc (and keep Tonja Walker) in real time.

11 minutes ago, Vee said:

Per our discussion in the Loving thread (somehow) re: Malone's eras:

 

 

And there's stuff even earlier still - not just the (IIRC) "cursed" Egyptian jewels I mentioned in the other thread that Alex, Cain and Tina vie for (an echo of not just Bourbon Street/AW but the far stupider Bahdra diamond stuff in 2003), but also Luna guiding Tina through 'visions' of her past life with Cord as a pirate, etc. as early as fall '91, and Kevin's wild visions of Lee Ann around the same time. Then you have the famed Midsummer Night's Dream coda episodes with Megan's ghost in spring '92 as well, and probably more I haven't seen yet.

Finally, the day after Megan dies in February '92, they go so far as to show an extended flashback to Starship Heaven with Virgil the angel. When Viki looks up in the hospital room back in '92, Virgil is right there in the doorway. He says one word ("Victoria") and it's implicit why he is there and who he has come for. She blinks and instead of Virgil, Clint is there and the news is out. I don't think Virgil appears again in that episode, or ever again. It was brilliant.

We're so fortunate most of this is now becoming completely available - I sure didn't know Brenda McGillis still had a little story arc with Wanda's health issues as late as fall '91 under Malone and Griffith, and you can see them figuring out when to bring back Christopher Cousins after his brief Rauch-era arc (and keep Tonja Walker) in real time.

"Luna guiding Tina through 'visions' of her past life with Cord as a pirate, etc. as early as fall '91, and Kevin's wild visions of Lee Ann around the same time."

Wow I don't remember this at all.  But it totally jives with some of Malone's fiction I've read which can go on tangents about past lives, etc.  I DO remember the Midsummer Night's Dream moment.

I do love that Virgil moment too (I recently revisited all those Megan episodes)--I like how Malone and crew did acknowledge all of OLTL's history but in a way that never felt like paying lip service, the way a certain later HW would.  Really, one of the few mistakes the first time around I think was not trying to up Larry into the role of a patriarch (even flirting with him and Vicki?)  Turning the character into someone who only existed as a doctor was a big mistake I think, and it would have been nice if they had built up his character after the final Rauch years (where he was barely a player in the storyline involving Dan his son, from what I can see.)  Of course keeping Wanda around would have helped with that, but I understand it was her decision to leave.

1 minute ago, EricMontreal22 said:

Of course keeping Wanda around would have helped with that, but I understand it was her decision to leave.

Yes, Marilyn Chris talked about it in the oral history and said she liked her exit storyline c/o Gottlieb. I love the stuff with her and Jason early on in summer-fall '91 as well, she runs the full gamut and is also hilarious hectoring Andy about not being stupid and going ahead and marrying a rich Hollywood up and comer. (She's back in 2025 doing a one woman show onstage these days at like 87 or something - and what a treat to see her young too in these '70s eps! Makes me wish we could see Wanda visit Llanview one more time.)

You can see some of Tina's swashbuckler visions with Luna in a promo and some random clips on YT from the time period (October '91, I think) but I suspect those full episodes will be going up very soon. I really did love Karen Witter's Tina, to the point that I continue to struggle picking between her and Andrea Evans.

I did appreciate that Malone gave Larry his last hurrah, in Viki's heart transplant story in 2004 where he figured heavily (and I think the kids still called him Uncle Larry).

1 hour ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I joined Rumble and found you!  Thank you, looking forward to checking the videos out, and certainly looking forward to revisiting this episode of Tomorrow.

Excellent! Told ya! 

1 hour ago, EricMontreal22 said:

James Lipton is a joke.  My number 1 love and where my work focus has been is on Broadway musicals (I teach a Sondheim history course) and James Lipton has infamously had several disastrous attempts at Broadway musicals.  Like much of his soap writing, I think the man was a hack who was never very good at anything he attempted to do (obviously I never saw his acting on GL so maybe he actually could act).  Certainly, he earned his name as a soap killer IMHO.  What he WAS good at was self promotion and making people think he knew his stuff--an image that he polished with the creation of Inside the Actors' Studio where he seemed like an authority just because he was talking to so many greats.

Supposedly Lipton wanted to have a hurricane in a totally landlocked location, nowhere at all close to a body of water. Again, supposedly he was very annoyed when they told him he could do a tornado but not a hurricane. D'uh. If I'm asked how he was as a soap writer I say he was great hosting Inside the Actors Studio. 

1 hour ago, EricMontreal22 said:

BUT my idea about how Bell and Nixon both took separate aspects of the Irna soap and then took off from there goes to just what you were saying actually how Bell saved Irna's (well as co-creator) Days and Nixon saved Another World.  I think even if you look at HOW Nixon "fixed" AW and how Bell "fixed" DAYS you can see the start of how they were going off in two different directions.

When people talk about Nixon saving AW they always talk about the Rachel-Steve-Alice triangle, which IMO is fair. I was watching then & it day-to-day really it was brilliance. When Alice was so happy that she & Steve were going to marry & Rachel announced that she was pregnant with Steve's baby ... classic soap & also new, too. 

When people talk about Bell at DAYS they talk about him making stars out of SSH & Flannery & Denise Alexander & also writing psycho-sexual drama which he basically never stopped doing! He made the mistake of killing poor baby Dickie. 

I think we could see their future selves in those two crucial HW jobs. 

1 hour ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I love the bit in Wakefield's All Her Children where Dan is having dinner at Nixon's home and he talks about how her daughter brings up a new soap that is also targeting a youth viewership (obviously Young and the Restless) and the daughter says there's one storyline on it (something to do with a gun?  I can't remember) that is ripping off a story her mom has written for AMC (I think, it may have been OLTL).  And Agnes Nixon is quoted as replying she knows the writer of that show and thinks he is extremely good, and that it isn't a rip off because he will have his own stylistic take on a similar idea.

I love your posts!

37 minutes ago, Vee said:

Yes, Marilyn Chris talked about it in the oral history and said she liked her exit storyline c/o Gottlieb. (She's back in 2025 doing a one woman show onstage these days at like 87 or something - and what a treat to see her young too in these '70s eps! Makes me wish we could see Wanda visit Llanview one more time.)

You can see some of Tina's swashbuckler visions with Luna in a promo and some random clips on YT from the time period (October '91, I think) but I suspect those full episodes will be going up very soon. I really did love Karen Witter's Tina, to the point that I continue to struggle picking between her and Andrea Evans.

I did appreciate that Malone gave Larry his last hurrah, in Viki's heart transplant story in 2004 where he figured heavily (and I think the kids still called him Uncle Larry).

"(She's back in 2025 doing a one woman show onstage these days at like 87 or something - and what a treat to see her young too in these '70s eps! Makes me wish we could see Wanda visit Llanview one more time.)"

Yeah my friend who knows my love for One Life and All My Children, and is a regular theatre goer in NY sent me a text with a pic of the program for her show asking "Do you know her?"  Apparently she's amazing in it.

I was always team Karen Witter as Tina, but I admit that;'s because she's the Tina I was introduced with.  But, I remember when I started posting on Usenet I was surprised that she was doisliked.

And you're right--Malone DID bring Larry back for that story.  I wish he had been asked to somehow be a part of the ABC finale as well.

6 hours ago, BetterForgotten said:

To be fair, I do think the production for DAYS in the 60's/70's was also quite cotemporary for the time (and much more than ABC actually) from what I've seen. 

Denise Alexander also said so- that when she came to GH she was shocked at the sets and even the filming equipment, it was less sophisticated than what DAYS was using.

2 hours ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I was always team Karen Witter as Tina, but I admit that;'s because she's the Tina I was introduced with.  But, I remember when I started posting on Usenet I was surprised that she was doisliked.

I loved Evans, but I was young when I watched her and I really thought Witter was a great recast. Kind of like Krista and Kimberly Simms as Mindy on GL, who I also preferred. Witter and Simms just had a more sophisticated take, and both were sexy in a more grown up way.

9 hours ago, GymnastGuy said:

Hey there!

I am glad you are enjoying my recent OLTL uploads.  The actor Vance was very generous to give out some of his episodes.

I also got from him ALOT of his original OLTL scripts from 1974-1980.

Enjoy!

 

You have made a lot of us very happy these last couple of days. It’s wonderful to see so much history that many of us have only read about. Performances and characters that we all know but many did not have the context of seeing their work and how that formed the characters. I never thought I would see so much of Pinkerton’s Dorian. Thanks for sharing!

I don’t want to hijack this thread bc right now, the OLTL, GL, and ATWT threads can all easily slide into becoming general classic soap discussion (maybe we need a thread for general talk?), but yes yes yes, welcome back, @EricMontreal22! Your presence makes it feel like the SON of old around here.

Re: the stylistic differences between ATWT/GL and other soaps of the time. Have any of yall read Her Stories? It’s a pretty good soap history book that came out a few years back. There’s a lot of fresh insight into the various soap “brands,” and ATWT and GL hit the traditional/old-fashioned grand slam of being P&G soaps that originated out of NYC, aired on CBS, and were created by Irna. As much as we associate the organ with vintage soap opera, only P&G and/or CBS soaps were still using it by the mid-60s. I would bet that even those one-year wonder NBC soaps in the 50s didn’t use it. None of the California soaps ever did (except for probably the last few months of The Brighter Day, which was produced in CA). Even Love is a Many Splendored Thing began with orchestral music before going to the organ as a cost-cutting measure.

36 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

I loved Evans, but I was young when I watched her and I really thought Witter was a great recast. Kind of like Krista and Kimberly Simms as Mindy on GL, who I also preferred. Witter and Simms just had a more sophisticated take, and both were sexy in a more grown up way.

I think the key is that Karen's Tina was really an evolved version of Andrea's in a lot of ways, for the more earthy and socially conscious '90s Malone and Gottlieb pursued. She really channels so much of Andrea's bubbly, fast-talking energy in her performance but also changes it up. She was great.

That said, everything I've seen of Andrea outside of '80s (and 2010s) Tina makes me think she could've modulated given the opportunity - at times her personality IRL in interviews seemed like night and day, voice and everything. It was fascinating.

I know nothing of Cali Timmins' work though she allegedly came thisclose to being cast as the umpteenth Tina in 2003 in Malone II (in what did not sound like a great story). I should look into it.

Edited February 1Feb 1 by Vee

7 minutes ago, All My Shadows said:

I don’t want to hijack this thread bc right now, the OLTL, GL, and ATWT threads can all easily slide into becoming general classic soap discussion (maybe we need a thread for general talk?), but yes yes yes, welcome back, @EricMontreal22! Your presence makes it feel like the SON of old around here.

Your wish is my command, AMS.

16 minutes ago, All My Shadows said:

I don’t want to hijack this thread bc right now, the OLTL, GL, and ATWT threads can all easily slide into becoming general classic soap discussion (maybe we need a thread for general talk?), but yes yes yes, welcome back, @EricMontreal22! Your presence makes it feel like the SON of old around here.

Re: the stylistic differences between ATWT/GL and other soaps of the time. Have any of yall read Her Stories? It’s a pretty good soap history book that came out a few years back. There’s a lot of fresh insight into the various soap “brands,” and ATWT and GL hit the traditional/old-fashioned grand slam of being P&G soaps that originated out of NYC, aired on CBS, and were created by Irna. As much as we associate the organ with vintage soap opera, only P&G and/or CBS soaps were still using it by the mid-60s. I would bet that even those one-year wonder NBC soaps in the 50s didn’t use it. None of the California soaps ever did (except for probably the last few months of The Brighter Day, which was produced in CA). Even Love is a Many Splendored Thing began with orchestral music before going to the organ as a cost-cutting measure.

Her Stories by Elana Levine is one of my favorite books. Also she did some of research on the AWHP Eddie Drueding article The Creation of Another World. Levine's coverage of the network expansion is one the best explanations of who did what where. Now she doesn't do the dreaded 90 minute AW but she's got everything else.

If you are into the soap's organ music you need to visit Lance Jackon's YT channel