On 5/19/2023 at 6:20 PM, Khan said:

Mel was Dorian's best pairing after Herb, and probably one of the best things Claire Labine ever did during her HW'ing stint at OLTL was create him as a new love interest for Dorian.

I really wish they would have revealed Mel was alive and that he returned and ended up with Dorian

According to Melissa Archer, Natalie was gonna be Ben's daughter with Lisa Peluso's Gina but was changed after she was hired

 

As for Drew's return and death in 1998 was that always the story or did JFP drop Sam Ball and change course?

Frankly, @John, I wish Dorian had reunited with Herb Callison instead.  Anthony Call and Robin Strasser were just so good together, lol.

24 minutes ago, John said:

According to Melissa Archer, Natalie was gonna be Ben's daughter with Lisa Peluso's Gina but was changed after she was hired

I can see why.  Natalie would not have lasted for very long had she been Ben and Gina's daughter.

I don't think I would have minded Natalie being Clint and Viki's daughter had the show kept the story simple, emphasized the emotional beats over the shocking twists and trusted the audience more.  It's all the attempts to have Jessica be a Buchanan after all that lost me.

Edited May 23, 20232 yr by Khan

13 minutes ago, Khan said:

Frankly, @John, I wish Dorian had reunited with Herb Callison instead.  Anthony Call and Robin Strasser were just so good together, lol.

Agreed, Herb was the only man who was Dorian’s equal. I often got the vibe that Mel looked down on Dorian to an extent and I’ve never really felt that way with Herb from what I’ve seen. 

37 minutes ago, Khan said:

I think Natalie was created with Tina (and Tina and Viki's relationship) in mind.  Even after she got pregnant by Will, Jessica was Viki's "perfect" daughter - likely because, as @Vee said, Erin Torpey was too intelligent to portray Jessica as a stereotypical damsel in distress.  Jessica wasn't "messy" enough to keep herself and Viki in angst...but Natalie could've been.

I think we were going to learn that Jessica's biological parents were Roxy and Mitch.  I think the revelation would have caused a temporary rift between Jessica and Viki, as Jessica struggled with a sudden loss of identity.  "If I'm not Clint and Viki's daughter," she'd be asking, "then who am I?".

I think Mitch was brought back (even though we saw him die on-screen) so that he could be there as Jessica learned the truth; and I think Jessica would have reached out to him and to Roxy (as Viki looked on in dismay) in an attempt to replace the ties she believed she had lost with the parents who had raised her.  But, once Jessica realized that her biological parents were no damn good, Roxy and Mitch would have been disposed of, and Jessica and Viki would have tearfully reunited.  Jessica still wouldn't be a "real" Buchanan anymore, but Viki (and Clint) would have "adopted" her; and Natalie would always be torn between her sense of devotion toward her adoptive sister and her fears that her biological parents preferred Jessica over their own child.

Some of that actually played out, of course, but I think the key fact in the story - that Alison Perkins switched Jessica and Natalie at birth - was changed early on, because the EP and HW's were more concerned with surprising the audience than with just trusting that they would hang on to see how it all played out.

That’s a great assessment, I really wish they would have delved into the psychology of Viki with Natalie and Jessica-with Natalie being messy and wanting acceptance like Tina or Karen, and Jessica being so similar to Viki but wanting her own identity and not to live in the shadow of her mother, could have led to years of character driven story, instead Jessica and Natalie became damsels in distress. I would have loved to have continued to see Natalie causing hell, intentionally and incidental, for Jessica and Viki for years. Putting Jessica with Antonio and Natalie and John…just., no. Makes no sense. 

Just now, soapfave06 said:

That’s a great assessment, I really wish they would have delved into the psychology of Viki with Natalie and Jessica-with Natalie being messy and wanting acceptance like Tina or Karen, and Jessica being so similar to Viki but wanting her own identity and not to live in the shadow of her mother, could have led to years of character driven story, instead Jessica and Natalie became damsels in distress. I would have loved to have continued to see Natalie causing hell, intentionally and incidental, for Jessica and Viki for years. Putting Jessica with Antonio and Natalie and John…just., no. Makes no sense. 

And in my dream world, once that saga dried up, a gay CJ and a troublemaking Sarah would have returned with Tina and Cord on recurring, preferably both played by half Mexican/half white actors, to honor Cords roots. 

13 minutes ago, soapfave06 said:

And in my dream world, once that saga dried up, a gay CJ and a troublemaking Sarah would have returned with Tina and Cord on recurring, preferably both played by half Mexican/half white actors, to honor Cords roots. 

I swear there came a point when CJ was retconned out of existence, lol.

22 minutes ago, Khan said:

I swear there came a point when CJ was retconned out of existence, lol.

Cord & Tina called CJ & Sarah when they remarried in 2011

13 minutes ago, John said:

Cord & Tina called CJ & Sarah when they remarried in 2011

Sorry, I was joking.

1 hour ago, Khan said:

Frankly, @John, I wish Dorian had reunited with Herb Callison instead.  Anthony Call and Robin Strasser were just so good together, lol.

I'll never get over Tony Call saying he turned down a return at the end because Ron wanted Herb to return married to Karen Wolek - a gag about their famous storyline. (Judith Light claimed to have no knowledge of this, but she did turn the show down too.) It's not dissimilar from the dumb gag return they pitched at GH for John Stamos when he wanted something more substantial - they offered 'Blackie Parrish returns for a walk-on part married to Jackie Templeton, hahaha.'

1 hour ago, Vee said:

I'll never get over Tony Call saying he turned down a return at the end because Ron wanted Herb to return married to Karen Wolek - a gag about their famous storyline. (Judith Light claimed to have no knowledge of this, but she did turn the show down too.)

I'm all for gags, but I think any gag you write into a story should make sense.  Herb Callison and Karen Wolek returning to Llanview as a married couple did not make sense - and not just because of what happened on the witness stand either!

JL's run on OLTL was so perfect that it's difficult to imagine any return scenario meeting everybody's expectations.  Also, there was so much cast turnover in the years following her departure that I don't think her return would have made much of an impact.

1 hour ago, Vee said:

It's not dissimilar from the dumb gag return they pitched at GH for John Stamos when he wanted something more substantial - they offered 'Blackie Parrish returns for a walk-on part married to Jackie Templeton, hahaha.'

Didn't they want him performing at the Nurses' Ball with Rick Springfield, too?  Or did I misread that?  Again, in order for the gag to work, it can't violate logic for the sake of the gag.

Now, I did (and still do) wish GH would bring back Blackie/Stamos, but I would have him now as the director of a community center, where he could work with at-risk kids.

Edited May 23, 20232 yr by Khan

I’ve always said Karen was such a definitive character and that in many ways it’s perfect that she never returned for a failed stint or to be destroyed. She’ll always have that one amazing and EPIC stint and though JL was a recast, she’ll always have that one definitive actor attached to her. 

OLTL had so much turnover I think it made it difficult to bring back almost anyone, and comparing even just RC’s stint on One Life to that of GH and DAYS, where almost everyone has or had returned and Marlena has been the center of DAYS, unlike Viki on OLTL during his time. And even the returns they did do missed so much-what a failed opportunity to get Tina, Dorian and Viki in one room together. Alex had decent returns, I guess. Pamela was killed. Poor Marty (enough said). Pre-1983 was forgotten altogether. 

4 hours ago, Khan said:

Didn't they want him performing at the Nurses' Ball with Rick Springfield, too?  Or did I misread that?  Again, in order for the gag to work, it can't violate logic for the sake of the gag.

Now, I did (and still do) wish GH would bring back Blackie/Stamos, but I would have him now as the director of a community center, where he could work with at-risk kids.

Yes, they wanted both things, but nothing else. According to Stamos he wanted a brief storyline that had some impact, a la what you mention and was not into the gag or as he said (paraphrasing) 'just coming back to play drums.'

As for Karen, I did and do think that the best way to use her in a brief return would be as a 'Deep Throat'-style figure at the center of some sort of political scandal only Viki, the Banner and maybe a young protege (like Destiny, who worked there under Viki in 2013) can solve. Karen left the show still living in the shadows on the edge of society and that's where she would stay, IMO. There is a mystique to the character that should be preserved.

Edited May 23, 20232 yr by Vee

5 hours ago, Vee said:

As for Karen, I did and do think that the best way to use her in a brief return would be as a 'Deep Throat'-style figure at the center of some sort of political scandal only Viki, the Banner and maybe a young protege (like Destiny, who worked there under Viki in 2013) can solve. Karen left the show still living in the shadows on the edge of society and that's where she would stay, IMO. There is a mystique to the character that should be preserved.

That isn't a bad idea, @Vee.  It's certainly better than bringing her back as Herb's wife, lol.

For sure, @Vee, I couldn't see Karen remaining with Steve forever.  Eventually, Steve would've become as "domesticated" as Larry, if not as affluent, and part of Karen's problem was that she just wasn't cut out for that kind of life.  She would've been compelled to leave at some point, breaking Steve's heart like she did Larry's.

Edited May 23, 20232 yr by Khan

11 hours ago, BetterForgotten said:

I’ve always said Karen was such a definitive character and that in many ways it’s perfect that she never returned for a failed stint or to be destroyed. She’ll always have that one amazing and EPIC stint and though JL was a recast, she’ll always have that one definitive actor attached to her. 

 

10 hours ago, soapfave06 said:

OLTL had so much turnover I think it made it difficult to bring back almost anyone, and comparing even just RC’s stint on One Life to that of GH and DAYS, where almost everyone has or had returned and Marlena has been the center of DAYS, unlike Viki on OLTL during his time. And even the returns they did do missed so much-what a failed opportunity to get Tina, Dorian and Viki in one room together. Alex had decent returns, I guess. Pamela was killed. Poor Marty (enough said). Pre-1983 was forgotten altogether. 

I agree with both of your statements.

In my mind, Larry and Karen reunited eventually.  It was one of those "chance encounter" things, where they ran into each other accidentally while Larry was in Chicago on business.  However, I don't see them ever remarrying, nor do I see Karen ever willing to return to Llanview.  Instead, Larry and Karen began a "Same Time, Next Year"-type of arrangement, where they would agree to meet once a year and resume their affair, with the understanding that Larry couldn't ask Karen any questions about her life now.  Larry would be concerned for Karen's well-being, of course.  In time, however, he would come to understand and accept that this new arrangement would be all that Karen could commit herself to.

Now, here is where I might work in Karen's return.  First, I would bring back Michael Storm for an arc where the long-absent Dr. Wolek raises Viki's and others' concerns that he is exhibiting signs of dementia.  Eventually, Larry would be diagnosed with Alzheimer's or Lewy Body Dementia.  Danny and Wanda would return to Llanview in order to discuss with Viki what should be done about Larry.  Together, the three would agree that Larry should remain in Llanview, at a memory care center, so Viki can keep a close eye on him.  Wanda would return to her bookstore/cafe in Seattle.  Danny would make plans to return to San Francisco, where he runs a women's clinic; however, he changes his mind after sparks fly between him and Tea Delgado.

In the meantime, as all that is playing out, Karen becomes concerned when Larry fails to appear for their yearly assignation.  When she is unable to reach him, she fears the worst and reluctantly decides to return to Llanview.  At Llanview Hospital, Karen overhears a conversation between two other characters and learns about Larry's illness.  Before Karen can go see Larry, however, she runs into Viki, who is, of course, shocked and delighted to see her again after all these years.  In that moment, however, Karen has other things on her mind than reminiscing with her old friend - she's got to see Larry right away!  So, Viki takes Karen to where Larry is staying.  Danny is visiting with his father when the two arrive.  For the first time, Viki learns what Larry meant when he kept saying he had somewhere he needed to be.  With Larry and Karen alone, Danny fills Viki in on Larry and Karen's yearly meetings, revealing that he learned about the two several years ago when he spotted them together in public, but agreed to keep quiet for Karen's sake.

Later, Viki and Karen are back at Llanfair, where the two finally have an opportunity to catch up on old times.  Karen is again very cagey about what she's been up to, saying only that she has a life that works for her.  However, the implication is there that Karen has, indeed, returned to "the life."  Viki asks if she knows about Jenny, who perished years ago in an avalanche.  Karen says she does, and that Brad Vernon has finally settled down as a girls' tennis coach, and that Marco Dane is a private investigator living in Florida, and so forth.  She also expresses her amusement over Dorian Lord once being the mayor of Llanview (and married to a woman).  Viki hopes this means Karen will return to Llanview - if not permanently, then at least on a regular basis, to see Larry.  Karen, however, makes it clear that that can't happen.  But she does tell Viki to take care of Larry for her.  But what if Larry ever needs you or asks for you, Viki asks.  Karen assures her that if Larry ever really needs her, she'll be there.

There also could be a scene between Danny and Karen, where Karen expects Danny to confront her for forcing his father to keep her whereabouts a secret from everyone for so long, but Danny thanks her instead for being there for Larry after he had spent so many years alone.  (And if Aubrey Wentworth were still in town, then there could be a run-in between her and Karen, too, with Karen amused that Kristine Karr would have the audacity to use an identity she had stolen from an elderly man who'd been the victim of one of Kristine's "pigeon drop" scams.  "You know," Karen says, "maybe Marco Dane and I did the right thing after all, giving you to Jenny so she wouldn't think her real daughter had died.  Who knows?  If my sister had raised you instead of Katrina, you might've amounted to something.")

Finally, there would be one last, tender moment for Karen and Larry at the facility.  He asks if they're on for next year; she says yes.  She smiles at him before leaving his room. With his door closed, Karen whispers goodbye, then turns and walks away.

3 hours ago, Khan said:

 

I agree with both of your statements.

In my mind, Larry and Karen reunited eventually.  It was one of those "chance encounter" things, where they ran into each other accidentally while Larry was in Chicago on business.  However, I don't see them ever remarrying, nor do I see Karen ever willing to return to Llanview.  Instead, Larry and Karen began a "Same Time, Next Year"-type of arrangement, where they would agree to meet once a year and resume their affair, with the understanding that Larry couldn't ask Karen any questions about her life now.  Larry would be concerned for Karen's well-being, of course.  In time, however, he would come to understand and accept that this new arrangement would be all that Karen could commit herself to.

Now, here is where I might work in Karen's return.  First, I would bring back Michael Storm for an arc where the long-absent Dr. Wolek raises Viki's and others' concerns that he is exhibiting signs of dementia.  Eventually, Larry would be diagnosed with Alzheimer's or Lewy Body Dementia.  Danny and Wanda would return to Llanview in order to discuss with Viki what should be done about Larry.  Together, the three would agree that Larry should remain in Llanview, at a memory care center, so Viki can keep a close eye on him.  Wanda would return to her bookstore/cafe in Seattle.  Danny would make plans to return to San Francisco, where he runs a women's clinic; however, he changes his mind after sparks fly between him and Tea Delgado.

In the meantime, as all that is playing out, Karen becomes concerned when Larry fails to appear for their yearly assignation.  When she is unable to reach him, she fears the worst and reluctantly decides to return to Llanview.  At Llanview Hospital, Karen overhears a conversation between two other characters and learns about Larry's illness.  Before Karen can go see Larry, however, she runs into Viki, who is, of course, shocked and delighted to see her again after all these years.  In that moment, however, Karen has other things on her mind than reminiscing with her old friend - she's got to see Larry right away!  So, Viki takes Karen to where Larry is staying.  Danny is visiting with his father when the two arrive.  For the first time, Viki learns what Larry meant when he kept saying he had somewhere he needed to be.  With Larry and Karen alone, Danny fills Viki in on Larry and Karen's yearly meetings, revealing that he learned about the two several years ago when he spotted them together in public, but agreed to keep quiet for Karen's sake.

Later, Viki and Karen are back at Llanfair, where the two finally have an opportunity to catch up on old times.  Karen is again very cagey about what she's been up to, saying only that she has a life that works for her.  However, the implication is there that Karen has, indeed, returned to "the life."  Viki asks if she knows about Jenny, who perished years ago in an avalanche.  Karen says she does, and that Brad Vernon has finally settled down as a girls' tennis coach, and that Marco Dane is a private investigator living in Florida, and so forth.  She also expresses her amusement over Dorian Lord once being the mayor of Llanview (and married to a woman).  Viki hopes this means Karen will return to Llanview - if not permanently, then at least on a regular basis, to see Larry.  Karen, however, makes it clear that that can't happen.  But she does tell Viki to take care of Larry for her.  But what if Larry ever needs you or asks for you, Viki asks.  Karen assures her that if Larry ever really needs her, she'll be there.

There also could be a scene between Danny and Karen, where Karen expects Danny to confront her for forcing his father to keep her whereabouts a secret from everyone for so long, but Danny thanks her instead for being there for Larry after he had spent so many years alone.  (And if Aubrey Wentworth were still in town, then there could be a run-in between her and Karen, too, with Karen amused that Kristine Karr would have the audacity to use an identity she had stolen from an elderly man who'd been the victim of one of Kristine's "pigeon drop" scams.  "You know," Karen says, "maybe Marco Dane and I did the right thing after all, giving you to Jenny so she wouldn't think her real daughter had died.  Who knows?  If my sister had raised you instead of Katrina, you might've amounted to something.")

Finally, there would be one last, tender moment for Karen and Larry at the facility.  He asks if they're on for next year; she says yes.  She smiles at him before leaving his room. With his door closed, Karen whispers goodbye, then turns and walks away.

Oh my, what could’ve been. It’s simple, heartfelt, covers all the tracks and honors history. Thank you for sharing that!