8 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

About Vanessa, yes, I think she should have been the end game matriarch..but paired with JVD as patriarch. I would have moved everything to have Ross and Van reunite and be the new tentpoles...Bloss and Mattessa fans be damned. Ross has the gentle warmth that would offset Maeve's icy backbone of steel (I would never want to be on the end of Kim Hughes "kiddo" but I would NEVER, EVER want to feel the quiet wrath of Vanessa, even Reva admits at the end that she is afraid of her!!!) 

LOL...you know I love it when Vanessa locks in on someone, activates her regal bitch mode and coolly lets whoever know they have crossed a line and it won't be tolerated by her. I just watched her snap on Holly (after Holly torpedoed Ross' campaign with the pic of Ross and Blake). What on most shows would've been some catfight with raised voices is much more cutting between two equal women (who'd just formed a bond during Vanessa's rape trial) who aren't screaming the house down or chewing scenery.

Another funny description of Vanessa--back in 1983, Beth is describing how nervous she was her first night of serving at the Country Club (where she waited on Mindy and Vanessa and spilled Vanessa's water). When Rick realizes it was Vanessa he says ..."she'd make the Queen of England nervous." 

Edited June 25Jun 25 by P.J.

2 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I do think Wheeler was hired to run out the clock. She kept the show alive longer than many probably expected. I wouldn't really blame her (I would criticize a number of her choices but I wouldn't blame her for the show ending), and I wonder if she was not seen as a crying woman if she would get as much blame. 

Well, I have used the words scapegoat & sacrificial lamb, clock runner outer, meh, maybe so. Basically that term would be applied to whoever was last, right? Someone had to do it. The one to turn the lights out. 

But, I do think she gave us at least 4 years that we otherwise would not have had. I know some of you do not have an appreciation of that, but I do.

It has crossed my mind a time or two that she kept the show on the air, longer than P&G expected.

And we know Ellen had worn different hats I worn them well. People who try to diminish her as JUST A DIRECTOR. have badly missed the point. As many years as a Line Producer & some time as Assoc. Producer ...

Now i am the first in line to call out P&G as the cheapskates that they obviously were. But, once again, there is nothing unique in this about Wheeler, it would also have applied to the only other promote from within candidate & he would have been just as much over his head.

 

Edited June 25Jun 25 by Contessa Donatella

46 minutes ago, P.J. said:

Or if she would be characterized as "weak" if she weren't a woman. She was playing the cards she was dealt. There's a lot of criticism of Goutman, who was dealing with the same issues. But I can't recall any suggestion (whether rumors in the press or by the actors) that he was somehow "less than" for working within mandates sent down from corporate.

And I'd lay odds if Wheeler had barked back at Kim, then she'd have been cast as the bitch.

Goutman didn't cry... he was viewed as an A-hole.  Had he cried, people especially would have painted him as "less than".  

If the EP of a show is crying, that means they aren't right for the job.

Wheeler was recruited most likely because she had directed scenes and episodes that showed she had the ability to direct.. and perhaps P & G hit two birds with one stone by elevating her as an EP as both an effective way to get someone for cheap and as a reward for being a loyal P & G employee.

However... being a good/decent director doesn't mean you'll be a good Executive Producer.  Directors are creative in a sense because they have to have a vision/imagination and the viewer sees that vision when watching the episode they're directing (I tend to think when watching an episode that I'm seeing the episode from the POV of the director).  Executive Producers have to deal with budgets, performers gripes, and the production company/owners of the show they're running.   

3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I never saw the resemblance onscreen, and I rarely heard anyone talk about the resemblance until this thread, but maybe I was in the wrong places. There were definitely other mean-spirited elements that I noticed at the time, like the way Toby Poser was treated.

I do think Wheeler was hired to run out the clock. She kept the show alive longer than many probably expected. I wouldn't really blame her (I would criticize a number of her choices but I wouldn't blame her for the show ending), and I wonder if she was not seen as a crying woman if she would get as much blame. 

Some of the soap press gleefully reported that Marian was created to look like JFP. Michael Logan took delight in this fact. This was right after he had publicly called for JFP to be fired from GL--something Logan developed amnesia about when he interviewed her yrs. later and he told her sexism was the reason people responded to her so negatively. 

@SoaploversI remember Christopher Goutman getting a lot of criticism in the soap press for how he handled ATWT in its last two years. He was seen as an a-hole who destroyed ATWT. His firing of Martha Byrne (which people probably wouldn't mind now considering what has happened) was written about extensively. Even when people disliked GL and the Peapack stuff, Wheeler was seen as the desperate EP trying to save her dying show. I think she got a lot more  grace because people in the soap press knew her acting work and soap journalists did not like how Goutman ended AW.

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

 

If the EP of a show is crying, that means they aren't right for the job.

Which EP threw up after sitting through a dinner with Kim and Pam Long? Joe Willmore? It doesn't sound like Kim was easy to deal with, period.

4 minutes ago, chrisml said:

@SoaploversI remember Christopher Goutman getting a lot of criticism in the soap press for how he handled ATWT in its last two years. He was seen as an a-hole who destroyed ATWT. His firing of Martha Byrne (which people probably wouldn't mind now considering what has happened) was written about extensively. Even when people disliked GL and the Peapack stuff, Wheeler was seen as the desperate EP trying to save her dying show. I think she got a lot more  grace because people in the soap press knew her acting work and soap journalists did not like how Goutman ended AW.

I would still be royally pi$$ed at Goutman's treatment of her. And, there is some resonance here. The year before MB had voluntarily taken a substantial cut because she knew that dire straits were coming. 

1 minute ago, P.J. said:

Which EP threw up after sitting through a dinner with Kim and Pam Long? Joe Willmore? It doesn't sound like Kim was easy to deal with, period.

Joe Willmore, right. 

31 minutes ago, P.J. said:

Which EP threw up after sitting through a dinner with Kim and Pam Long? Joe Willmore? It doesn't sound like Kim was easy to deal with, period.

I do wonder how other actors feel about Wheeler. I can't remember if she also cried with them. She clearly made many mistakes, which we know all about, but the idea of her constantly being hysterical seems to stem from one person in particular.

43 minutes ago, chrisml said:

Some of the soap press gleefully reported that Marian was created to look like JFP. Michael Logan took delight in this fact. This was right after he had publicly called for JFP to be fired from GL--something Logan developed amnesia about when he interviewed her yrs. later and he told her sexism was the reason people responded to her so negatively. 

@SoaploversI remember Christopher Goutman getting a lot of criticism in the soap press for how he handled ATWT in its last two years. He was seen as an a-hole who destroyed ATWT. His firing of Martha Byrne (which people probably wouldn't mind now considering what has happened) was written about extensively. Even when people disliked GL and the Peapack stuff, Wheeler was seen as the desperate EP trying to save her dying show. I think she got a lot more  grace because people in the soap press knew her acting work and soap journalists did not like how Goutman ended AW.

I saw and enjoyed reading the Logan columns you shared. I just didn't really remember the comparison from the time, even though I read Logan fairly often. If it was intended as a slight against JFP then it was more subtle than some McTavish digs over the years.

Goutman did get his share of criticism, but also a lot of support, to the point of writers at places like, IIRC, Daytime Confidential bending over backward to praise him for brave choices like...barely bringing anyone back for the show's final year, or...killing a gay character for no apparent story reason. Wheeler did get some praise, but more of the talk seemed to lean toward mocking her for being a Mormon and the agenda she had for the show, etc.

I do think some of the criticism was deserved, like everyone needing to have a baby, and some of the vibes. Just the tone was often so pointed in a way that I don't know if we'd see in other cases (even Goutman).

Edited June 25Jun 25 by DRW50

23 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

or...killing a gay character for no apparent story reason. Wheeler did get some praise, but more of the talk seemed to lean toward mocking her for being a Mormon and the agenda she had for the show, etc.

There was a story reason,it was to bring Luke back to Noah, but TPTB should've changed course when Luke/Reid hit it off with viewers.  Goutman was just stubborn,  he was the same way when AW ended and said something to the effect that the show was about the here and now and not the past.  The shame is ATWT had nine months lead time to do fan service and GL did much more in the third of that time.

3 minutes ago, Spoon said:

There was a story reason,it was to bring Luke back to Noah, but TPTB should've changed course when Luke/Reid hit it off with viewers.  Goutman was just stubborn,  he was the same way when AW ended and said something to the effect that the show was about the here and now and not the past.  The shame is ATWT had nine months lead time to do fan service and GL did much more in the third of that time.

I haven't watched in a while, but I don't even think Luke ended up with Noah. 

I do like the idea of characters not having to be together just because a show was ending, but killing Reid always felt like just one more middle finger from a producer who was very adept at them.

Sorry, I know it's the wrong thread.

The only thing I didn't like about the finale was reuniting Josh and Reva when the show had taken great pains over the last few years to show that they loved one another... but were no longer in love with one another.  

I always like to think that Jeffery ends up returning from the dead and throwing Josh/Reva's newfound coupledom out of the window.

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

If the EP of a show is crying, that means they aren't right for the job.

I'm sure plenty of EPs have cried--they just didn't get the scrutiny she got because they weren't at the center of the demise of the oldest soaps on the air. 

10 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

About Vanessa, yes, I think she should have been the end game matriarch..but paired with JVD as patriarch. I would have moved everything to have Ross and Van reunite and be the new tentpoles...Bloss and Mattessa fans be damned. Ross has the gentle warmth that would offset Maeve's icy backbone of steel (I would never want to be on the end of Kim Hughes "kiddo" but I would NEVER, EVER want to feel the quiet wrath of Vanessa, even Reva admits at the end that she is afraid of her!!!) 

I have never understood why GL never went that route with Vanessa and Ross. All that backstory, the actors' incredible on screen chemisty, how popular they both were. It was no-brainer. They teased it a few times and then quickly ditched it every time. One of the great might have beens of GL.

3 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

The only thing I didn't like about the finale was reuniting Josh and Reva when the show had taken great pains over the last few years to show that they loved one another... but were no longer in love with one another.

Oh, God, YES. Sorry, Ross/Rachel, Big/Carrie, and Josh/Reva lovers, but the knee-jerk compulsion to bring toxic couples together for a finale is one of the worst examples of fan service out there.

Maybe Josh and Reva weren't exactly TOXIC, but their expiration date was LONG past. (Unlike, for example, Ross and Vanessa, who could have had years more life to their pairing)

Edited June 25Jun 25 by DeeVee

Luke ended up alone and unhappy. Van Hansis recently said that Jean Passanante (sp?) apologized for giving Luke such an ending. 

Someone needs to ask Liz Keifer if Ellen Wheeler was constantly crying. She'd give an honest answer. I'm not sure Alan Locher would ask her though. It's not the crying part I care about though. It's the shoving Jonathan down viewers' throat part that turned me off but YMMV.

I also remember that Goutman was still getting blowback from the way he ended AW with the damn gorilla. Critics were worried he'd end ATWT the same way. I didn't understand the gorilla reference (still don't). 

34 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I do wonder how other actors feel about Wheeler. I can't remember if she also cried with them. She clearly made many mistakes, which we know all about, but the idea of her constantly being hysterical seems to stem from one person in particular.

I saw and enjoyed reading the Logan columns you shared. I just didn't really remember the comparison from the time, even though I read Logan fairly often. If it was intended as a slight against JFP then it was more subtle than some McTavish digs over the years.

Goutman did get his share of criticism, but also a lot of support, to the point of writers at places like, IIRC, Daytime Confidential bending over backward to praise him for brave choices like...barely bringing anyone back for the show's final year, or...killing a gay character for no apparent story reason. Wheeler did get some praise, but more of the talk seemed to lean toward mocking her for being a Mormon and the agenda she had for the show, etc.

I don't know if the fact so many actors came back in those months means she had their respect, or if they had a loyalty to the show. 

I can't recall any ATWT actors throwing Goutman under the bus. Other than perhaps Martha Byrne.

10 minutes ago, chrisml said:

I also remember that Goutman was still getting blowback from the way he ended AW with the damn gorilla.

Somehow, I was unaware of this. I looked it up, and WTF?

Why would anyone think this was a good way to wrap up a soap? It's making Josh and Reva reuniting by the lighthouse seem not so bad after all.

The bar is set now for soap finales: at least they didn't have a gorilla. 😂

Edited June 25Jun 25 by DeeVee

4 minutes ago, chrisml said:

Luke ended up alone and unhappy. Van Hansis recently said that Jean Passanante (sp?) apologized for giving Luke such an ending. 

Someone needs to ask Liz Keifer if Ellen Wheeler was constantly crying. She'd give an honest answer. I'm not sure Alan Locher would ask her though. It's not the crying part I care about though. It's the shoving Jonathan down viewers' throat part that turned me off but YMMV.

I also remember that Goutman was still getting blowback from the way he ended AW with the damn gorilla. Critics were worried he'd end ATWT the same way. I didn't understand the gorilla reference (still don't). 

I'm one of the people out there (not that I have any role beyond bitching on here) who didn't mind the gorilla finale for AW, but I am probably going to be complaining about his ATWT choices until my last breath. 

I never could take Jonathan either. 

11 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

I'm sure plenty of EPs have cried--they just didn't get the scrutiny she got because they weren't at the center of the demise of the oldest soaps on the air. 

I have never understood why GL never went that route with Vanessa and Ross. All that backstory, the actors' incredible on screen chemisty, how popular they both were. It was no-brainer. They teased it a few times and then quickly ditched it every time. One of the great might have beens of GL.

Oh, God, YES. Sorry, Ross/Rachel, Big/Carrie, and Josh/Reva lovers, but the knee-jerk compulsion to bring toxic couples together for a finale is one of the worst examples of fan service out there.

Maybe Josh and Reva weren't exactly TOXIC, but their expiration date was LONG past. (Unlike, for example, Ross and Vanessa, who could have had years more life to their pairing)

I think it helped Ross and Vanessa that they were rarely if ever a proper couple onscreen. We could wonder what might have been (and yes they were a natural idea for a reunion by the mid '00s). One of those times that a backstory-heavy relationship works.

I didn't hate the end with Josh and Reva because they were a couple I knew would always reconcile, but I am not sure I would have chosen that as the last scene. It wasn't a terrible last scene, but given the history of the Bauers, I would have had them for the last moment. 

I do like that the last actual shot was of the lighthouse, from a distance. 

Watching again I'm also reminded of all the unnecessary music...

1 minute ago, P.J. said:

I don't know if the fact so many actors came back in those months means she had their respect, or if they had a loyalty to the show. 

I can't recall any ATWT actors throwing Goutman under the bus. Other than perhaps Martha Byrne.

I imagine it was more about the show than her, but that so many were willing to return, even if terrible conditions, meant she was able to work with them enough to say yes.