Y&R: Episodes discussion, Week of August 31

[MarkH]

I know some of you have no faith in the ability of this crew to write nuance, but I heartily disagree.

Jack Abbott, in Peter Bergman's hands, remains the epitome of bad-to-the-bone (taking advantage of brain damaged Victor, forging the diary and letting Adam take the fall) while being sappily sweet (any scene with Sharon, his forgiveness of Phyllis [Restless Style hatchet piece] and Billy [the Sharon thing seems to be COMPLETELY behind them]).

I would argue that Phyllis and Sharon (whom I know many of you hate...and their storyline too) are straddling nicely the conduct of bad acts and worthwhile (or at least relatable) motives.

I would argue that Patty is NOT a cartoon villain. I would argue that the very thing most of you eschew ("why couldn't she have been Mari Jo") is precisely the thing that will save her (that, plus one of the most capable new hires Y&R has had in years). We know the ROOTS of her damage. We have no clue regarding the heinous things that have filled the last quarter century that FURTHER TWISTED an already DEMONSTRABLY TWISTED character. (I know some will say "she was fine when she left"...but the point is she SNAPPED IN FRONT OF US. And if she snapped once, she can do so again).

There is nothing, nothing, nothing (IMO) that exists to stop Adam from getting to a much better place. I do think it is going to be harder for the smirky-Muhney to accomplish it (something Cara Mia said a million times)...but from a writing perspective it is highly possible. For example, (I've said this before--and this is not my original idea), in my backstory, it will turn out that stepfather Cliff was a sexual abuser who took Adam behind the barn and raped him. Because Hope was blind, she didn't realize. Adam eventually caused the tractor accident that killed Cliff, maybe because Cliff seemed to be a threat to Hope. In that moment, he compartmentalized and became a survivor-at-all-costs. Moreover, in that moment, he became open to any kind of sexual activity if it served his ends. (Maybe Cliff said "have sex with me, or I'll kill your mother"...suddenly, going down on Rafe is not such a stretch for him). With that backstory, ultimately premised on Victor's neglect of his son (he was not a compensating force), we can understand and heal Adam.

Fair recognition: First, someone will come in here and lambaste me for writing "spec scripts" and "rationalizing". Someone else will say "Don't write this down, or the writers will steal it". A third will say, "Ah, you people with psychology backgrounds--you can rationalize anything".

I recognize these things, but I still believe there is much hope and potential for Adam.

[brimike]

ROFLMAO!! Like I said, we're just as predictable as the writing is.

[DRW50]

The bad acts from Jack were some time ago. Since the forged diary business, Jack has existed as a weak, pathetic man. He is there to be taken advantage of by Sharon (which they suggest we have little sympathy for, as all he does is cry and pout and then go back to being her crutch), and to be seen as the guy who can't compare to Nick. The main reason the Sharon affair seems to be behind Billy and Jack is because the show no longer brings it up. My guess is they either regret the story, or they did it only as yet another twist to get attention and to show us what a hot stud Billy is (nothing like taking advantage of a mentally ill woman to show us what a big one you have in your pants). I will never believe any bond between Billy and Jack again after that. Truthfully I don't believe any bond between Billy and anyone, because every scene he has is all about him. Even when he tries to "help" people, the show makes sure the emphasis is on what an effort he is making. Even Billy Miller himself has said in the soap press that Billy just does this stuff for himself, not because he cares.

I don't think the show is trying to make Sharon seem relatable or bad. I think they have decided she can do whatever she wants and as long as the other characters feel pity for her, fans will do the same. Everything Sharon does, from neglecting her son, to casually committing adultery with several men, to stealing, to lying about her unborn child's paternity, is presented as noble.

Do we know the roots of MJ's damage? All we know is that she went nuts 25 years ago. I think this is another crutch. The show can have MJ do whatever she wants, and then say look at her, she used to be unbalanced, so she is still unbalanced. Is she like the Incredible Hulk of Y&R? We know that gamma radiation makes Bruce Banner go nuts, so whenever the plot needs it, there she goes again?

I don't mean to put down your idea, but I think I've said before that I will be very upset if they say Cliff sexually abused Adam. Not only because this would be yet another character ruined for plot purposes (they have already let us know that Cliff was a worthless father compared to Victor -- never mind that Cliff died in an accident when Adam was a toddler, and he never even got to really know Adam), a character I admired a great deal, but also because when Y&R is already peddling so many stereotypes, I don't think I would want to see how they would handle sexual abuse = insanity or sexual abuse = homosexual activity.

On GL, they had Ben Reade revealed out of nowhere as a serial killer, and their excuse was a retcon that he had been sexually abused while he was in boarding school. They just casually assumed the two had to be related, that all they had to do was say he had been raped and molested so naturally he was a headcase.

I don't care about seeing justification for Adam's decisions. As with MJ, they had a chance to build up months of slow burn about why they were doing what they were doing. Instead it's plot plot plot, burning through various shock value stories to get a ratings boost, then after the fact, dropping in a few sad face moments to try to justify the next bout of terror. Since they have gone down this road, I would rather see them not even give Adam any reason for being a monster. People don't always have a reason. I don't trust the people at this show to have any idea how to explain the roots of mental illness. They are stuck in an era which makes the Hays Code seem liberal.

[MarkH]

What I love ... and I am being sincere ... is how two verbose guys can watch the same show, and so fundamentally get "tom-ay-to" versus "tom-ah-to" out it.

What I also extract from that is the incredible cajones (or female equivalent) it takes to be a soap writer in the modern era. By pleasing me, they would displease many others. And vice versa.

I better read this MAB interview that people are fuming about .

[rhythmchyc]

I can't even enjoy one my favorite actors on screen anymore because of Tammin's whining. I could stand his mumbling and his retardation but not watch him actually stand before the little twit whine: "I can't find a job because I'm a lush and a whore. Wahhhhh, is my hair flat?"

Why isn't Victor allowing anyone in the house? Katherine had to stand on the stoop, one of his oldest friends, to speak to him. He wouldn't even let Traci in originally either. WTF?

<sigh>

And I thought Adam's lies were supposed to come out this week.

[DRW50]

I just hope I didn't sound like I was putting your ideas down. I actually agree with most of what you are interpreting, I just don't think the show agrees. The only part I disagree with is about revealing Adam was sexually abused as a child and this made him more likely to have sex with men. After the "Radam" and Phillip stories I am very, very afraid of what this team would do with such a storyline. I'm also afraid of what they will say about children of sexual abuse.

As for Sharon, I remember back when she was in one of her breakdowns, she was stealing and had gotten back together with Jack but still wanted Nick, and she was out of it, and Jack almost had sex with her. Then Jack said he had never loved her more. At the time, many interpreted this as a low point, as an example of how unhealthy his love for her was. Yet here we are, with Sharon in the nuthouse, telling Nick she told all these lies to everyone about Jack being her baby's father because she wanted to protect him. It's a sick, immature reaction to the world, but Nick's reaction was similar to Jack's earlier this year. He was obviously in awe of her and deeply in love with her for doing this.

I really think they want us to believe Sharon's flaws actually make her a better woman, that she just can't help herself, and these constant lies and self-destructive choices are noble, poignant, because they are all based on her love of a good man. We're supposed to pat her on the head and beam.

[MarkH]

I'm telling you, he's off his epilepsy meds, or his brain lesion is growing. Seriously, that would explain all this and get us back to normal, LOL.

I didn't feel put down at all. You write very well, so one sees the logic of your point. I'd be willing to let go of the sexual abuse part in my "spec script" .

Maybe some Y&R writer will come here and steal my ideas, in which case the show will end up agreeing

In all seriousness, I think the show is quite troubled right now. I'm actually vaguely disturbed that MAB didn't acknowledge ANY errors in judgment. But, then again, that's publicity talk. One doesn't necessarily acknowledge one's "brand issues". The proof will be in the future storytelling. Does it improve to respond to these widely expressed concerns? If yes, that will speak louder than any words.

I liked how MAB EXPLICITLY took credit for Kitty. So many people were attributing Kitty to Sheffer.

[DRW50]

I wonder if that was damage control. I find it odd that this big animal lover would happily come up with stories about a dog being murdered and about a cat who was murdered and stuffed and used as comic relief.

MAB seems to do nothing but damage control in her interviews. Perhaps if she replaced Sheffer and Hamner with competent writers, she could have better results.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Read the fall previews dear, I can assure you that you won't be seeing much of a difference at all. When MAB says she and her team of hacks haven't made any mistakes, she UNFORTUNATELY means it...

We're never going to get adequately paced storylines, a show that isn't overloaded with cartoon psycho antics, romantic couples that have chemistry, exploring of the professional side of the characters lives, characters with fleshed out motivations, and more stuff we used to associate with soaps and Y&R. MAB and her writing team see Y&R as the anti-soap, and unfortunately, since she can't admit to any mistakes in her creative vision, we'll be stuck with that mentality guiding our show.

[MarkH]

And you know what will happen if you're right?

Fall 2008: HH=4.0

Fall 2009: HH=3.4

Fall 2010: HH=2.8

Fall 2011: HH=2.2

Fall 2012: HH=1.6

Fall 2013: Cancelled

[Y&RWorldTurner]

At least I can say no one tried to save this show in its final years, they were all too caught up feeding their egos to truly cherish the show and the loyal audience the show had left towards the end. In other words, they dug their own grave...

Damn, I really want to say someone tried to give us some hope and tried to write Y&R as true to its roots as possible before it went off. Unfortunately, we aren't going to get that with Maria Arena Bell, Hogan Sheffer, and Scott Hamner.

As I've said before, If we must keep Maria, it's time for her to admit some mistakes and getting rid of Sheffer and Hamner would be a move in the right direction.

She can then ask her husband to find her a writing partner that worked with Bill or one of his proteges in the past. No, not Natalie Minardi Slater or Janice Ferri Esser. Perhaps a Bell protege that has experience outside of Y&R, but of course knows and loves Y&R for what it is. Someone who understands what made Y&R special, yet can contribute a new, fresh vision for the show with some invigorating ideas.

I'd then try to focus my attention on why the day to day writing is so atrocious and confusing. First, I'd cut the breakdown staff in half, and then I'd get rid of two or three SW's and hire better replacements. Smaller writing staff, please.

I'd then try to diversify the types of stories on the show, and try to get rid of as much dead weight as possible. There's no reason why certain characters have to be neglected all the time. Balance, please.

Of course there's more, but it starts with someone at the top realizing that Y&R is in the gutter and needs to get its act together.

[MarkH]

In a rare vindictive moment, let me please say ABSOLUTELY NOT NMS!

I can't believe that she was there, in that "central" function (script editor/coordinator/whatever she is), and she let them forget Victor's vasectomy. I cannot believe that she allowed HALF A YEAR to go by without addressing the vasectomy.

Yes, I realize she is not the HW. But that was such a destructive error. Maybe she did say something, but she was ignored. That's still relevant, because it then means her voice would not be influential.

Let me remind us how utterly destructive that move was. It caused many of us to believe that Sabrina was either faking the pregnancy, or that she had had a side dalliance with Adam and was in cahoots with him. Nobody bought the sincerity of the Sabrina-Victor romance, because we thought she was playing him. Moreover, because he seemed so happy about the baby, many of us thought HE was PLAYING HER. (That would actually have been an interesting cat-and-mouse, kind of like he did with Cassandra Rawlins two decades earlier).

Alas, none of that interesting deception was going on. It was truly a writer error, premising an entire story on a "physical impossibility" that they had forgotten. It so damaged the character and story that Sabrina had to die. (Arguably, that launched a golden phase in August 2008...but only after viewer bleeding damn near killed the show).

That one little error scarred my heart against MAB, but especially against NMS. Because SHE WAS THERE! She was PRESENT during the "Spermgate" saga that ate the show for years. And she either said nothing, or was impotent.

Sorry for the off-topic thing.

Putting this back on topic (yesterday's episode)...even back then (Sabrina), as now, I am really questioning Victor's choices. Time and again, he comes across to me now as a duffer and blowhard and a foolish man. All hubris. While that was always a part of Victor, it used to be balanced by his lethal nature.

But now he just ambles about the ranch (is he retired??), plotting foolish revenge with the town fools (the BARDWELLS??!?!), in faded and ill-fitting Wal-mart clothes (no disparagement against Wal-mart, but this is not the Hugo Boss I would expect of a magnate like Victor).

I thought Nikki (self-entitled senatorial candidate) was the most ruined character in LML's regime. And, at present, I think Victor is the most ruined character in MAB's regime.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

In NMS's defense, I think she was getting ready to go on maternity leave just before that story came about.

Plus, what MAB wants, she does. Natalie might have spoken up, she maybe didn't, but MAB does what she wants to do. To hell with history if it doesn't suit her agenda and to hell what the fans think.

Preferably, MAB would be fired along with Sheffer and Hamner, but if we must keep her, at least get a better Co-HW and trim your writing team in like half, Maria!

Maria strikes me as someone that is easily persuaded by her Co-HW's, hence why Sheffer and Hamner's s.hitprints are all over this show.

[MarkH]

You can't defend NMS to me. She is presently on my Brittany-Hodges list.

I never saw that word before (s.hitprints). I might use that one!

[alphanguy74]

Didn't anyone see how fabulous Beth was today? That woman needs to be put back on contract, and I mean NOW. Such realism, such real feeling, she's brilliant in every damn way. And wasn't Eileen rocking out her scenes today? And for once, I LOVED them showing Billy as the valiant rescuer, going in... picking her up with his strong arms, and telling Adam.. "Tell your DADDY, Billy Abbott said SCREW YOU! It almost made me want to jerk off. And Traci talling Jack, "You two are like two little boys, kicking sand in each other's faces!" I wish she would have said that to Victor. You notice Victor only softened a BIT when Traci started to CRY, and then he was STILL obstinate. I loved how at the end, she put up her finger, and didn't say a WORD... but her expression and gesture said it all... it said, "This ain't over, motherf$cker!"