Y&R: Episodes discussion, Week of August 31

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Beth Maitland is great, I just wished she was back for a better storyline and one that's actually good. Ashley is pathetic and I'm so sick of this overall storyline. Nothing to do with pacing, I just think it sucks and the motivations for it all are almost nonexistent.

I also wish Traci wasn't just brought back for the stunt/shock and awe event that's coming up on Sept 17th...

The Abbot family dynamics has been missing for a long time, they all seem so isolated. Now that John is dead, Traci is the emotional center and calm one in that family. It would be wise to establish her as some type of matriarchal figure in that family.

Y&R has sorely lacking family dynamics for a while now, and whenever family members are together, it just feels so false and hallow.

The Newman family is the one that needs the most work, but the Abbots need work too.

[Toups]

That was awesome! It made me like Billy today. I also loved his line to Jack about if/when he goes after Victor, it's him that it's in the line of fire, unlike Jack who puts other people in the line of fire.

I didn't love it that much.

And dammit, Alvin, stop posting spoilers and talking about what's going to happen two weeks from now!

[alphanguy74]

Ha ha!!! I didn't expect you to, Toups Testosterone filled heroic studs just get to me. It reminded me of the scene where John Enos did the whole "saving of Nikki" scene. Great stuff. I always liked Billy... he's just always so irresponsible. But today wev'e seen the beginnings of MATURITY, and I like it!

[DRW50]

I thought that was a very odd line, since he has never gone after Victor until very recently, and only because he learned Jill and Victor worked against him to help Cane. He also has never lost anything in a feud with Victor, whereas Jack has, because Jack's been taking the lumps for over twenty years.

Billy always knows how to make it all about himself.

I feel sorry for PB. They keep phasing Jack out of more and more of the story. I guess they think the more weak they make Jack look, the tougher Billy will be.

[DRW50]

I did love Beth's work today. She is the real center of the Abbott family for me, not fairweather, self-absorbed Ashley or Billy. I'm just glad Traci only makes occasional appearances, as that means they don't ruin her character.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Too true, especially the last part.

[Stevie]

Beth was completely the best.

I did enjoy Billy's scenes taking Ashley but as far as Traci she is just a good strong woman.

I LOVE her no B/S attitude calling a spade a spade.

[MarkH]

As long as we all realize this, like Nina, is a new Traci.

It makes perfect sense that both have grown up, and are now mature and strong. Moreover, especially since so few women on the show are like this now, I like it very much. I can't wait to see either Nina or Traci on my screen.

But the writers have done 180s with their characters. Let us not forget how very NOT strong Nina was for most of her time on the show (David Kimble, falling into clinical depression, trapping P3 to get money and a family, etc.). Let us not forget how very NOT strong Traci was (insecure/overweight fan club president, getting sucked in by Dr. Tim Sullivan, buying Lisa's lies, attempted suicide when she got pregnant, Lauren's emotional browbeating of her time-and-again).

This is a case where I have no problem with the character changes because [ a ] they are appealing, and [ b ] it is plausible that the actresses would have changed thus after years of (off camera) life experience.

These character changes, IMO, are no different than what has happened to Patty, whose evolution also happened off camera.

[DRW50]

I don't think the character changes go beyond what advances the plot. They had to make Nina strong because she was the one who uncovered the truth about Cane. Since that time, she just pops up occasionally to meddle in her son's love life or talk with Phillip (since she forgave him within a week).

It was only a few years ago when Traci returned and was an emotional wreck over John's death. Now she is the strong one because they can't focus on the Abbotts currently on the show, as they all let Ashley slide into the depths, and because they need to use Traci to show us how pathetic Jack is supposed to be.

It's also easier to be a stronger character when you are not around on a permanent basis. Women who are around more often are more likely to be degraded for story purposes. Look at the difference in Ashley when she briefly returned for Victor's wedding and how she has been since she came back for good.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

I can accept change in Nina and Traci, since neither character is driving any story and both are going to be on for a limited amount of time. It's not like they turned both characters into a victims, or stupid people who think a man is the center of their universe, like they've done with all the contract women on the show.

Oh please, both Traci and Nina left on happy terms and from what we've known, both had successful lives outside of Genoa City, which could have helped them get stronger.

We still have no idea what's driving Patty Jane to do the things she's doing and we know she didn't leave town a complete wreck.

And please don't tell me that's going to be explained AFTER Patty's reeked so much havoc on the show in such a short amount of time. Again, we haven't been given the slightest clue as to why she's doing the things she's doing.

Traci made periodic visits, Patty was forgotten about until they conveniently needed a psycho to come into Jack and Victor's universe.

Sorry, none of this should be rationalized. It's not in the writing and has never been.

Also, unlike Patty, neither Traci or Nina are leading any story and neither are going around town killing animals and core characters (you know who). Not like either character has taken an EXTREME 180. They're extremely supporting characters.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Exactly.

There is no plausible explanation for the Patty Jane character, since all we've been told is that "She's crazy!" What can of justification is that? Again, they haven't laid any groundwork or clued us into anything that triggered this personality change, and sorry that should have been done as she's doing all these bad things, not after she's killed people and animals and does it more than once...

All I can say is, if Jack is ever romantically linked to Patty Jane in the near future, I would never be able to buy that. Not only did she rape him, but she's responsible for the

, if anyone in the Abbott family looks past that, it would be an example of the vile, hallow, and badly planned storytelling that's so evident with this regime.

Patty Jane's crimes can't be whitewashed, she's done too much harm and she'll be doing more in the future. It's foolish to want her to stick around, she's beyond ruined. Redemption arc my ass. This woman needs to be sent to a nuthouse, I cannot plausibly see anyone in Genoa City bestowing forgiveness on her after all she's pulled and "she was just crazy!" is not a damn excuse.

[alphanguy74]

Actually, the MYSTERY of what became of Patty has kept many a long time fan wondering. And there WAS something in the writing. I beleive it was 1996 (not sure of the year, but I know it was the 90's) but Paul began talking to Lynn and to Lauren about Patty, saying that she'd used to send a christmas card to their mother once a year, but he nor Mary ever hears from her, and doesn't even know where she lives.... and he can't figure out why. We have about two weeks of this buildup, even him talking with Mary about it, and then we have the infamous "phone booth scene", where we see a blonde woman from the back, trying to call Mary, and the phone ringing in a dark, empty house. Then NOTHING. I know some don't like to remember this because it's Bill Bell dropping something without explanation, but it DID happen, and to this day, I STILL haven't found ANYONE who has the scoop on what went on? It looked on the surface that they were in negotiations to bring back Lilibet Stern, and they fell through.... but I don't know anyone who's ever confirmed this. I'm still mystified by it. But there WAS some mysterious groundwork laid around 12 year ago. And sorry... we ARE just going to have to wait until the end to find the motivation. Nothing wrong with that, hell.. most prime time shows employ that. But then again, my favorite show is Space: 1999, where in many cases you NEVER find out the motivation. It leaves the viewer to ponder. It's called, deep, psychological drama.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

I know about that, but there was no significance to it. Patty hasn't been mentioned by Jack or Paul in YEARS. They seemed to have forgotten her existence.

Hence again, if they needed to revive a psycho, why didn't they just bring Mari Jo Mason back? She has a history with BOTH Jack and Victor.

Yep, but that was all 13 years ago, and nothing was made of it. It's not similar in any way to how Traci and Nina might be different from what we saw years ago.

Again, laying out clues and hints as to why people are doing the bad things they're doing is standard soap opera. Having them do bad things and using the explanation that they're "just crazy" is not an excuse. How are people supposed to understand the thought process of these "villains" or even sympathize with them if they just see them murdering people, murdering dogs, and causing a little girl brain damage? We haven't even been given a HINT in the writing as to what caused her to go off the edge.

Maybe this is perfectly suitable for primetime, but unfortunately, a daily soap like Y&R has 5 days a week year round to plot and pace its stories, yet complete beats are skipped and the pacing is atrocious. There is no excuse for this, and simply saying she's nuts is not a justification for her behavior.

IF they reveal her try motivation after she's caused so much harm to many people, then what is the use? She already harmed too many people and while she was doing it, we were never given so much as a hint as to why she's doing the bad things she's doing and what caused her to go to this point in her life and now. The motivation of the characters on this show is very poorly defined.

Well, on a soap opera that airs 5 days a week year around and only does things for shock value and does complete stunts these days, it's called bad plotting, bad pacing, and overall lazy writing.

[alphanguy74]

You do realize what your'e saying... your'e saying you want this show to be PREDICTBALE. Being predictable, while I LOVED it... also made the ratings cut in HALF before LML or Maria ever darkened the doorstep of HW. So what do you do in that situation? My main point is that you might not like it.... but revealing motivation at the end of a story or not at all is not neccisarily LAZY, it's a legitimate style of storytelling. That has nothing to do with any skipped beats. Not giving characters enough dialogue or screen time is skipping beats....I don't see them skipping much of anything with Patty or Ashley's gaslgiht SL. With Rafe, YES.... with Phillip, YES. With Jill... HELL YES. But the thing is, we DO have a hint of motivation, and it's MENTAL ILLNESS. You might poo-poo such thing as motivation, but it's realistic... just ask THOM. I still think the "Where did you put my pills, Kitty?" was a big foreshadowing of the reason for her mental state. Mental illness is a real thing, and I don't know why you discount it out of hand, like it's NOTHING. It's something alot of people struggle with, and alot of people keep hidden and secret, because people such as yourself are so damn flippant about it, acting like it's no reason for not being able to function like a normal person, etc..it's obvious your'e young, and still have that feeling of "invincibility" that most young people have. I WISH I still had it, but life will hit you in the face with an anvil at some point, and you'll understand what I'm saying.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

No, I want the show to make sense. Cluing the audience into why someone is doing bad thing is standard soap opera. You don't have to GIVE IT ALL AWAY, you tease the audience with it, so they're interested and want to know more about it. You don't simply skip over teasing the audience and then using the lame excuse "she's just crazy!"

And Maria's storytelling causd the wrost ratings erosion in Y&R's history, so?

Again, maybe for episodic and primetime shows, but not on daytime.

Not delving into a character's thought process and not teasing the audience as to what caused her to become a psycho is LAZY and is a beat that's been IGNORED.

Hell, viewers were able to sympathize and understand initially why Sheila was as psychotic as she was and at least partly understand why she was doing all the crap she was doing. Not all was given away, but we were teased and clued into what made her tick. She was/is a complete lunatic, but we could at least in part understand where she was coming from, and not ALL was given away at the BEGINNING in the initial Sheila story.

I find crazy Sheila better developed than what we have now as Patty Williams.

It's safe to assume that all the villains and psychos that were on soaps had SOME MENTAL ILLNESS. But again, that is not a real motivation or excuse. Something had to trigger it all, and we're not clued into what triggered Patty's, it simply doesn't exist in the writing.