My point is, if Chris Engen quit because he refused to kiss Tonya Lee Williams, wouldn't that make him a racist?

My point is, if Chris Engen quit because he refused to kiss Tonya Lee Williams, wouldn't that make him a racist?

If you could prove to me 100% that is why he quit I would say yes.

No one and I mean no one has proven yet that Chris Engen truly quit over the kiss. Even his statement and all the rumors are way too ambiguous to say that it is the sole reason he quit.

As I said to even make the point some of them have to read between the lines to make that point in his statement. And different people have interpreted what he said different ways. Even the choice part - some think he means that homosexuality is a choice while others think that he means the choices an actor makes. Many are of the impression he quit because of the dark direction of the character which makes it a stupid decision at best, while others are so sure that it is the kiss that they have labeled it a homophobic decision. Even Errol pointed out the fact that in coming weeks Adam has some pretty evil stuff to do. And we have had rumors for awhile now that he had problems with the direction of his character.

Add to it the fact that the only and I emphasize the only source of this information is Nelson's source. No one has quoted another source - NO ONE. There are not rumors of other people saying this like it was with the Days stuff. SOD and SOW and Carolyn Hinsey haven't even touched it.

So as long as it stays this ambiguous I refuse to become another Jerry Falwell and accuse a man of something that I can't say 100% he did. If I do I become no better than one of the judgemental bigots that I want no part of.

And as Bellcurve put it, I refuse to string a man up by his hairy balls on ambiguous at best evidence. And I guess according to the new gay representatives that makes me a homophobe.

My problem with that is, if it were flat out untrue, wouldn't Engen have been the first to deny it in his statement? Since that is the big issue that has been raised, why wouldn't he want to refute it if it's simply an invalidated rumor?

Edited May 28, 200916 yr by juniorz1

My point is, if Chris Engen quit because he refused to kiss Tonya Lee Williams, wouldn't that make him a racist?

That's a different situation entirely.

And this is exactly what's WRONG with some people in the gay community. Engen's unwillingness to kiss a dude and even break contract for it is being labeled a civil right's issue?! Hold the presses, someone get GLAAD on the phone so they can protest outside of Engen and his son's home and make out and protest because he won't kiss another guy. And bring CBS2 and Eyewitness out there while you're at it!

We, as a people, need to pick and choose our battles carefully. There are much greater things to focus on in the gay community besides worrying about some actor not kissing another male actor. When we focus on petty issues like this(juiced by queens like Perez who think they're the next Milk), it makes the community as a whole look incredibly shallow and arrogant. Why are we spending so much time destroying someone else's career whenever there's probably another one of our own out there who probably lost his job today because he's gay? Why are we so quick to judge whenever we have so many people within our own community(and probably some of you hypocrites here who are so ready to string Engen up by his hairy balls) guilty of homophobia, racism, and other prejudices?

Only one person brought that up, so let's not try and make it seem like this is what this entire thread was about.

Second of all, nobody said there wasn't bigger issues out there, this just so happens to be the one getting exposure.

Third of all, I don't think the opinions of a small daytime community board is going to destroy the man's career. If so, then a whole lot of actor's careers would have been destroyed already.

Lastly, people keep saying that we cannot prove that he left over an alleged kiss. Okay, well then prove to us that he didn't. The whole situation is very clear cut in the middle, and the only one that truly knows the answer is Chris Engen. And giving his MySpace page, we sure as hell ain't gonna get a clear answer from him.

In due time, I think the truth will eventually come out. Whether it be a drunken "caught on video" confession, or another similar instance.

For the record, I don't agree with TC posts per se...

Edited May 28, 200916 yr by MTSRocks

I can't believe the man is getting this much flack because he didn't want to kiss another guy. There are plenty of guys in this world that are perfectly fine with the gay community but wouldn't kiss a guy. It doesn't make you a homophobe, it just means you don't feel comfortable kissing another guy and that's perfectly fine.

Only one person brought that up, so let's not try and make it seem like this is what this entire thread was about.

The problem is that it has been HEAVILY implied here throughout this whole thread. That if you refuse to kiss another dude, then it makes you a homophobe or a gay basher. If you choose to believe the guy isn't a homophobe or a gay basher, then it makes you one. If you're not 100% "with us" you're "against us" and that way of thinking pisses me the [!@#$%^&*] off. No one is trying to change anyone's opinions here, but to simply be bashed, labeled, and even ridiculed for not being quick to judge and even having some sort of empathy for the guy?

Second of all, nobody said there wasn't bigger issues out there, this just so happens to be the one getting exposure.

And, again, what does THAT say about gay people who are quick to put this guy on a pitchfork? For the Engen situation to even BE an issue to the gay community when there are more pressing issues to deal with?

Third of all, I don't think the opinions of a small daytime community board is going to destroy the man's career. If so, then a whole lot of actor's careers would have been destroyed already.

No, but speculation and accusations from agenda pushing infotainment reporters like Perez and Nelson are. And, I guess walking out during the middle of your contract plays a huge part in ruining your career too.

Lastly, people keep saying that we cannot prove that he left over an alleged kiss. Okay, well then prove to us that he didn't. The whole situation is very clear cut in the middle, and the only one that truly knows the answer is Chris Engen. And giving his MySpace page, we sure as hell ain't gonna get a clear answer from him.

He said he no longer felt compelled to tell a story he didn't believe in. Again, does that make him a homophobe? Or does that make him someone who cared about the direction of his story and his craft as an artist? Would it have been better to force him to do the story even though his heart isn't into it, like Jake Silbermann, who clearly is not into playing Noah?

Y&R, the fans, and the gay mafia have their Gina Tognoni in Michael Muhney, who seems really enthused about where this story is going. Good for them. I just don't see the need in bullying and beating up some guy who quit over it, especially when I feel there's more going on with gays in the real world and even in daytime.

In due time, I think the truth will eventually come out. Whether it be a drunken "caught on video" confession, or another similar instance.

Well if he does have a KKKramer moment, we'll spend 40 more pages speculating about that, with people who may change their minds about whether or not he's a bigot.

Lastly, people keep saying that we cannot prove that he left over an alleged kiss. Okay, well then prove to us that he didn't. The whole situation is very clear cut in the middle, and the only one that truly knows the answer is Chris Engen. And giving his MySpace page, we sure as hell ain't gonna get a clear answer from him.

But who is saying that he definitely didn't leave over the kiss? People are either saying that we don't know everything that lead up to his leaving or that he definitely left because he's a homophobe and that's it.

^^^I already mentioned that.

It depends on your perspective. If your perspective includes accomodation of homophobes then you won't see it the same way I do. If your perspecrtive includes seeing someone like me, who is married to his same sex partner, as an oddity - now be honest with yourself, then all of this is just about a silly homophpbe that some people feel a need to protect.

He's a PHOBE. Protecting him, giving him the benefit of the doubt, makes you HOMOPHOBIC. No doubt in my mind that he is a homophobic. He made sure he didn't say anything outwardly bigoted but he managed to avoid saying anything positive about same-sex relationships. If the kiss was not a problem he would have said so.

This man is a homophobe. Anyone who defends him is a homophobe. That's how I see it and anyone who disagrees with me will just have to deal with it.

We all know what he meant.

Wow! Just wow!

And, again, what does THAT say about gay people who are quick to put this guy on a pitchfork? For the Engen situation to even BE an issue to the gay community when there are more pressing issues to deal with?

Thank youuuuu!!!!!

Chris Engen quitting his job does not affect me and my way of life in the slightest, no matter why he quit. He quit, he's gonna be unemployed for a while, and he and his kid will suffer because of it. I still have my job and my life, and nothing has changed because he left Y&R outside of the fact that a character on a soap opera I watch has been recast. Not like that's never happened before. A thousand actors can quit their jobs because they don't want to kiss someone of the same sex. My world. Still. Turns. That's why I don't see why there's such a urgency to put the dude on blast for what he may or may not have done. If it all comes out and he really is a gay-bashing [!@#$%^&*], then there would be nothing stopping anyone from handing him his ass then. But, IMO, now is definitely not that time. It may be the time for others, so they can go on and do and say what they want to say, but don't try to tell me that I'm wrong for having the opinion I have on this whole situation.

IMO, the gay community needs to stop trying to change people's minds in situations where it just don't matter. Miss California can't do [!@#$%^&*] for me whether she's for same-sex marriage or against. I do not carrrrrrre what she thinks about it, and as long as people try to get her to change her mind, the more she's gonna be built up as a martyr and the more her head is gonna swell to the size of Lisa Rinna's lips. Concentrate on getting through to people who can actually make a difference! Like the president! Senators! Governors! Heidi Montag!

Let's just say that Chris Engen comes out and says that he loves the gays and decides that he'll shoot a porno with Yani Gellman if that's what the job calls for. Okay. What then? About 23% of Y&R's viewers quadruples the sales of Kleenex, and Engen is invited to have siestas locas at the homes of Nelson and Perez. And Proposition 8 still stands in California.

The problem is that it has been HEAVILY implied here throughout this whole thread. That if you refuse to kiss another dude, then it makes you a homophobe or a gay basher. If you choose to believe the guy isn't a homophobe or a gay basher, then it makes you one. If you're not 100% "with us" you're "against us" and that way of thinking pisses me the [!@#$%^&*] off. No one is trying to change anyone's opinions here, but to simply be bashed, labeled, and even ridiculed for not being quick to judge and even having some sort of empathy for the guy?

I have no empathy for someone who walks off a good paying job, in this economy, and cannot coherently explain his reasons why. Why should I empathize with him? I empathize with those struggling to meet ends meet. Not novice actors who feel that their artistry is above this writing material. I don't feel like he was being threatened or doing anything immoral, which would lead for it to be a compromise of his believes. IMO this was just a selfish, juvenile, and stupid reason, whether it be story wise or over an alleged kiss.

And, again, what does THAT say about gay people who are quick to put this guy on a pitchfork? For the Engen situation to even BE an issue to the gay community when there are more pressing issues to deal with?

But now we're generalizing. Both gay and straight people go after what they believe to be an "injustice." Five or so gay people does not represent the entire population. I know there is a lot of ignorance in the world, but I would like to think that people can make rational decisions without responding to stereotypes.

No, but speculation and accusations from agenda pushing infotainment reporters like Perez and Nelson are. And, I guess walking out during the middle of your contract plays a huge part in ruining your career too.

True. Honestly, I don't think Nelson will have a huge impact. Plus, who takes a GOSSIP columnist, especially PEREZ seriously? I sure as hell don't.

He said he no longer felt compelled to tell a story he didn't believe in. Again, does that make him a homophobe? Or does that make him someone who cared about the direction of his story and his craft as an artist? Would it have been better to force him to do the story even though his heart isn't into it, like Jake Silbermann, who clearly is not into playing Noah?

Craft as an artist? He was a virtual unknown before Y&R. I'm not saying you should compromise your believes for money, but Engen specifically said in a recent interview with Soap Central boards to write in because he wanted more story. The homophobe angle comes from the idea that ENgen knew his story would take a "gay" turn and bolted. No, he shouldn't be forced into a story, but he should have known damn well that this is not a movie role. He is on daytime the scripts and character will continue to learn, change, and hopefully grow.

Y&R, the fans, and the gay mafia have their Gina Tognoni in Michael Muhney, who seems really enthused about where this story is going. Good for them. I just don't see the need in bullying and beating up some guy who quit over it, especially when I feel there's more going on with gays in the real world and even in daytime.

Again there is more going on. But this is a soap opera message board, and it relates to the daytime community. For other issues, there is an OT section. I always see people want to discuss issues but when we do they tend to shy away from it and get emotional. So my solution, start a topic and let's get discussing.

Well if he does have a KKKramer moment, we'll spend 40 more pages speculating about that, with people who may change their minds about whether or not he's a bigot.

He'll be dead to me if he does.

I can't believe the man is getting this much flack because he didn't want to kiss another guy. There are plenty of guys in this world that are perfectly fine with the gay community but wouldn't kiss a guy. It doesn't make you a homophobe, it just means you don't feel comfortable kissing another guy and that's perfectly fine.

Unfortunately, in the last few years, the gay community has taken on a rather petulant "you're either with us or against us" mentality that's getting more and more narrow by the day. Who knows what the exact reason was for his quitting. I doubt we'll ever know, or if we do find out, it'll be long after anyone still cares. But if his reason for leaving actually was the kiss thing, then I don't hold anything against him for it. It was his decision and the show has seemed to move on w/o missing a beat. The character and storyline continues. What's the problem? He had a right to not like or be comfortable with that particular character/story direction, and to opt out because of it. Engen being willing (or not) to play gay does not validate (or invalidate) any real gay people out there. Our (and I say that as someone who *is* gay) lives will not be any better or worse because of a daytime actors self-imposed story limits. Why people are taking this as some kind of personal affront to them, I don't know. Anytime any public figure does the slightest thing that could even barely hint that they may not be a pronounced supporter of the gay community, some people in it become like Nazi's out to destroy them, while others choke on the air while gasping at their "nerve."

I recently quit my job recently because, as a support technician working for a company contracted to offering support to Sears, I was told by my bosses that I would soon have to support (Sears-owned) Kmart operating systems as well. Since K-Mart technical environments are especially problematic and convoluted, I rejected the idea of having that added to my plate. I didn't have the option to say no and keep the job, so I quit. I wonder if the employees/shoppers would consider me a Kmart-phobe for choosing to walk.

Edited May 28, 200916 yr by ACEM

But now we're generalizing. Both gay and straight people go after what they believe to be an "injustice." Five or so gay people does not represent the entire population. I know there is a lot of ignorance in the world, but I would like to think that people can make rational decisions without responding to stereotypes.

I don't see where there's an injustice here, even if we knew factually that he quit because of a kiss (which we do not). Cris Engen made a choice for himself and he suffered appropriate consequences IMHO. Where's the injustice? He's not imposing his values, right or wrong, on anyone else.

Wrong choice of words. Post still stands.