I'd be curious to know how everyone would feel if Engen quit his job because he refused to kiss a black woman.

Someone will say this is not the same thing. They will say "let's not bring such hate into the topic". They will say "why do you have to bring up afro v homo?" and they will say "this is not cultural, this is primal". And there will never be a rectifying of the two positions.

Oh, I see, so we must preserve poor Chris for the women.

Is this an answer to my post? If yes, I never spoke about "Chris", I spoke about Adam.

We now have multiple reports on this incident, and there's clearly more to it after 20 pages. I'm sure your standard of proof for whether or not Engen is a bigot is if we can provide grainy webcam video of Chris Engen personally crucifying gay teenagers on a country road. But there's more to homophobia than the most extreme actions. As many have now said, including some actors from the show quoted anonymously, he was dissatisfied with "dark" storylines for a dark character, and the gay turn was the last straw. He's crippled and possibly destroyed his career over something most working actors in this economic climate would not blink at playing as a performer. That is a bigoted attitude.

I don't believe in being Perez Hilton, always taking the most vicious approach to any delicate situation. But what makes me angry here is watching people defend a performer when the evidence is against him, simply by virtue of "those gays can be uppity."

Vee, both you and Cashton ROCK!!!! I foolishly left you out when I first mentioned Cashton. But you two have the most sensible and straightforward posts ever!

Someone will say this is not the same thing. They will say "let's not bring such hate into the topic". They will say "why do you have to bring up afro v homo?" and they will say "this is not cultural, this is primal".

That's not what Wanda Sykes says, and that's good enough for me, LoL.

Someone will say this is not the same thing. They will say "let's not bring such hate into the topic". They will say "why do you have to bring up afro v homo?" and they will say "this is not cultural, this is primal". And there will never be a rectifying of the two positions.

LoL yep, and I will definitely be the one saying that homosexuality and race are two different matters.

Edited May 24, 200916 yr by MTSRocks

The magazines are too afraid to confirm the who, what, when, where and why, and very often the actors are advised not to say anything. We'll probably never have any sort of confirmation regarding this situation.

You are right. The magazines rely too much on show cooperation for the spoilers that apparently now drive their circulation. We'll never get anything outside of publicist-controlled interviews.

Indeed, it is into this vacuum that NB has come and flourished. At least he has a perspective and a consistent voice and (even if it is gossipy stuff) he mostly says things that come to pass.

I also don't expect Chris to twitter: "Yeah, I hate homos."

Personally, I tend to believe the story is true. I sincerely doubt that MAB would agree to do an interview with Nelson if he lied about something as huge/controversial as this just for sh!ts and giggles. Who knows, though.

Well, here is the rub. The Engen story could also be a show-planted tale, designed to cast Engen in the worst possible light, to justify replacing a popular actor. I'm not saying that...I don't even believe that...but I'm saying that without independent sources, we'll never know. MAB might be giving NB an interview because NB ran with her story about Engen.

Yup, I read that as well on another board. Co-stars are speaking out about the situation.

I think that 'co-stars' line comes from the Friday Nelson Report. Which means all the original reporting on this story still lies with NB. We have zero independent confirmation from another sources.

All that is clear is that Engen has been replaced. Everything else is sole-sourced and unattributed. I TOTALLY believe NB heard these things and is reporting what he heard. But I also have no doubt that there are other parts to the story. We'll likely never know these.

LoL yep, and I will definitely be the one saying that homosexuality and race are two different matters.

Truth be told, I don't feel they're exactly the same either. I mean, in terms of prejudice and whatnot, there are similarities, but in general, it's just apples and oranges. More than anything, I wanted to see if people think there is in fact a difference between the prejudice facing different minorities, since it was discussed earlier in the topic.

Are racism & homophobia the same thing? Yes & no. I think it's the issue of religion that makes is so complicated for some people. While people have used religion in the past to justify racism, racism is not woven into the DNA of the major western religions. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all ascribe to the idea that all of humanity are descended from Adam & Eve. How else where Christians & Muslims going to be so successful in their evangelizing if they limited their faith to one racial group? And until modern times, most sects of these religions also ascribed to the idea that heterosexual union was the ideal. It wasn't until people started saying that the Bible doesn't need to be taken literally and is a product of its time before certain sects began to evolve their ideas on homosexuality. Even psychiatrists classified homosexuality as a disorder for a long time. Racism is America is a few hundred years old but not every American was racist. Homophobia, however, in the western world is thousands and thousands of years old and DIRECTLY TIED to a literally reading of the Bible. For us to think we can snap our fingers and get rid of homophobia so quickly is naive. I realized that myself after Prop 8. I was quite shocked and distraught by the vote. The idea that people would take away marriage rights from their fellow citizens after they had been granted to them was horrible. Who the hell doesn't want Ellen to be able to marry Portia?! Listening to the Prop 8 supporters though I realized that they honestly believed they were doing their religious duty. They still take the Bible literally and here we come to our impasse. How do we find common ground between Bible literalists and full freedom for homosexuals? When you have folks like Sherri Shephard & Elisabeth Hasselbeck using their show as a venue to speak out against gay marriage because of their religion, and Sherri & Elisabeth represent half (or maybe slightly more than half) of the country, what's the right approach?

Anyone see the story about Marie Osmond's daughter? She has come out as gay and Marie is supporting her. Good for Marie.

Truth be told, I don't feel they're exactly the same either. I mean, in terms of prejudice and whatnot, there are similarities, but in general, it's just apples and oranges. More than anything, I wanted to see if people think there is in fact a difference between the prejudice facing different minorities, since it was discussed earlier in the topic.

Oh ok, good. I was about to cut a bitch. And yes, I do think that there is a certain prejudice when it comes to different minorities.

I wonder if CE has read this 26 page thread about him

I wonder if CE has read this 26 page thread about him

After the Perez Hilton bit, I'd be shocked if he and his representation haven't be deluged with interview requests. So, he's surely aware of the attention at some level.

Edited May 24, 200916 yr by MarkH

I get the sense that you reluctanly agree with me on a few points but dislike my tone and the fact I use big words. If i come accross as angry I am. I am no less angry than a woman who has had to silently endure her boss's sexist remarks. I am no less disgusted than when my best friend, who is black, was outraged that her high school "friends" all wore the confederate flag tee-shirts on MLK day as a joke. I am no more upset than any minority who has to sit and watch people congratulate, applaud, defend and justify offensive behavior. But the difference is that I'm apparently not allowed to be outraged. Does Engen deserve to rot in hell? No! Should he be ashamed of being so irrational and STUPID? Yes.

If/when all of the facts come out, and the rumors have been true all along, and Engen did skip out on the show because he wasn't comfortable playing the scene, then yes, I'd definitely call him a homophobe. I wouldn't mean the bastardized definition of the word, but the original definition, the definition that fits the suffix. I wouldn't group him in the same category as Anita, Miss Cali, Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc, but he'd still be a homophobe to me. So yeah, I agree, but I just wanted to be sure what definition of the word you were using.

Let me clear up what I think, just so I can be sure that I'm not included in the "I can't believe some people on here..." talk. I don't know the facts yet, so I don't have a full opinion of it yet. BUT, if it's all true, and he left because he was "uncomfortable" or it went against his "beliefs," then I think he's stupid. Can he be an actor and pick and choose what roles he wants to play? Yes. Heavens, imagine if every actor played every single role that was offered to them. BUT, the difference is that he was contracted to play Adam and whatever the writers wanted to do with Adam, and he broke the contract, and so he should be ready to go to court over it. Still, if you want to be the actor who turns stuff down based on your beliefs, I have to wonder why you are in daytime in the first place. Few soap opera characters live up to Catholicism's view of moral decency, so why exactly did he join the show if he knew he wouldn't do certain things?

That being said, however, I'm considering all of the above speculation until all of the facts come out and are reported by a source that will quote people, and by people, I don't mean "setside sources." This is exactly what Nelson's "setside sources" said:

“He [allegedly] refused to kiss [his same-sex] co-star Yani Gellman [Rafe]. Chris hasn’t been happy for a while. He doesn’t like the dark direction his character is taking. He’s called in sick a lot recently and has been taking a slew of meetings with Y&R’s [top brass] to discuss his future on the show. Chris is still under contract — and Y&R is seriously thinking of taking legal action.”

It doesn't say WHY he refused to kiss him, and yes, I know that the plainest, easiest, and most likely reason is because he's uncomfortable or doesn't "believe in it" (whatever that ish is supposed to mean) or whatever, but there are other possibilities. Maybe he simply doesn't like the fact that Adam is going to mock Rafe's sexuality for his own personal gain? It's not that much of a stretch, and I don't doubt for a second that it's a much less likely explanation than the first one, but until there's more to go on than Nelson Branco and his "sources," I'd rather not assume anything. For the record, just if the reason happens to be the latter, that his leaving is more about Adam unfairly using Rafe's sexuality, I still think it's idiotic to break contract. If it was the end of his contract, however, and he wanted to leave because he didn't like the writing, then I don't think that he would have to be Erika Slezak or David Canary or Eric Braeden or anyone else to do that.

Again, though, I just want to stress that all of the sites that are reporting that "Engen quit over gay kiss" are linking back to Nelson. If they don't refer directly to Nelson, they refer directly to a site that refers directly to Nelson. That's just one source! Sites like Soaps.com, SOD, CBS-SID, CBS.com, and others, don't say anything of the sort. Soaps.com actually states clearly that they haven't received any official word on why he left from the studio or CE's publicist.

I wonder if CE has read this 26 page thread about him

The thread is no longer there, but he should have checked out the Soap Central board when this broke out. Much more heated.

Let me clear up what I think, just so I can be sure that I'm not included in the "I can't believe some people on here..." talk. I don't know the facts yet, so I don't have a full opinion of it yet. BUT, if it's all true, and he left because he was "uncomfortable" or it went against his "beliefs," then I think he's stupid. Can he be an actor and pick and choose what roles he wants to play? Yes. Heavens, imagine if every actor played every single role that was offered to them. BUT, the difference is that he was contracted to play Adam and whatever the writers wanted to do with Adam, and he broke the contract, and so he should be ready to go to court over it. Still, if you want to be the actor who turns stuff down based on your beliefs, I have to wonder why you are in daytime in the first place. Few soap opera characters live up to Catholicism's view of moral decency, so why exactly did he join the show if he knew he wouldn't do certain things?

Again, though, I just want to stress that all of the sites that are reporting that "Engen quit over gay kiss" are linking back to Nelson. If they don't refer directly to Nelson, they refer directly to a site that refers directly to Nelson. That's just one source! Sites like Soaps.com, SOD, CBS-SID, CBS.com, and others, don't say anything of the sort. Soaps.com actually states clearly that they haven't received any official word on why he left from the studio or CE's publicist.

This is very reasonable. The only FACT is that Engen has been recast, and the source for that is basically Muhney himself (is there any other official announcement?). Everything else...EVERYTHING...is unattributed and reported by a single source.

Now, NB has earned a measure of "trust" from me, in the sense that what he says mostly comes to pass. But he also clearly has a very close reciprocal relationship with Y&R.

Thus, we really need attributed sources and, ideally, other reporters before we accept the currently prevailing version of why he left.

The thread is no longer there, but he should have checked out the Soap Central board when this broke out. Much more heated.

I read some of those posts but havent been back to check it out. It figures the mods at SOC would delete it..LOL