One could make a strong argument that the upcoming storyline is itself homophobic and also indulges in dark stereotypes about bisexuals.

I don't have a problem with gay and/or bisexual characters being dark. I certainly prefer it to all of them being saints. ZZZ. Give me a twisted gay villain any day over characters like Noah Mayer.

But again, one kiss doesn't really tell us much about Adam's sexuality.

I wonder if having a new actor in the role means the writers might modify the proposed SL in some way?

Maybe the new Adam develops GENUINE feelings for Rafe, and that complicates things even more?

I hope so. It would be a classic soap story if Adam seduced Rafe just for his scheme but then ended falling in love with him for real. If MM & YG have chemistry it could work.

As I said we can all take and stand on our side of the road and call each other names and stuff and wish death on everyone that doesn't agree with us. If we do that you know where we are going to be in ten years - still standing on that same side of the road throwing bricks and names at one another.

Wow! That's good!

Until Chris Engen comes out and says he hates gays and wishes them to die, then I won't call him a homophobe. If he is just uncomforatble with gays and uncomfortable with kissing another man, that may be all there is to it. And that does not make one a homophobe. That is just like an actress that refuses to do nudity - that doesn't make her instantly someone that hates people who do nudity - she just is not comfortable doing it herself.

This is an interesting distinction. I wonder if we'll ever get the true story.

I hope so. It would be a classic soap story if Adam seduced Rafe just for his scheme but then ended falling in love with him for real. If MM & YG have chemistry it could work.

That would be a wonderful story. But I think the other will too. I look forward to them showing a different side of how evil a villain can be. If this part of the rumors are true and that is the way Y&R plans to go with the story I am already excited. It is about time we get a villain doing something different than just using the town heroine to get what he wants - why not the town gay. It is a unigue and never been done. I am excited.

But there is a big difference in fear of homosexuality and being uncomfortable with it.

There are a great deal of things I am uncomfortable about but that doesn't mean I fear them.

I was uncomfortable about my first plane ride - very uncomfortable - but I ddint' fear it at all.

I was uncomfortable the first time I had sex wtih a woman but I didn't fear it.

So again I want to know if he hated the idea or was just uncomfortable with it before I label the man a homophobe.

"Uncomfortable" feelings stem from fear! See I think there's been an interesting disconnect on words here for this thread. When i say homophobic it does not equal anti-semite. Get me? Gay-basher = anti-semite. Someone who actively seeks to hurt another person because of their predjudice is a biggot/racist/anti-semite/gay-basher. There have been many homophobic posts on this thread, but i don't think they hate me cause I'm gay, I just think they think being gay is WRONG! And yes, you are entitled to that opinion but it is homophobic. You have a fear of homosexuality.

Just because I'm not afraid at this moment of being murdered, doesn't mean that I don't inherently fear being murdered if the situation was to arise. I hate murderers. Murdering someone is wrong. If you think homosexuality is wrong, you do FEAR it. I wish all people could go take a psychology course and understand what fear is. it's not just "i'm afraid of cats". Or that I run away from something cause it scares me. Fear does make you uncomforatable. The sick feeling the actor got in his stomache at the thought of kissing Yani is the same sick feeling Steve got from thinking about going on his first plane ride.

Do you guys get what I'm saying? The straightest men in the world are the ones who could care less if a gay guy hits on them! Not because they're bi, but because they're not afraid of another person. it means that they're secure enough in their sexuality that it doesn't mean anything and they can politely say "No thanks". it's the gay-basher who acts irrationally and kicks the crap out of him who is insecure and AFRAID.

But being uncomfortable about your first flight? Fear is not comfortable is it? It's UNcomfortable! From the posts it seems people are generally upset that the actor is being labeled homophobic - he is IF he refused to perform the role because of his feelings about homosexuality. We're not talking about personal time, we're talking about WORK! as an actor on a serial drama you know that you will be working with a diverse set of people and circumstances in emotional and sexual circumstances. What if he was a doctor and refused to see a patient because the paitent was gay and was fired because of it - would you say "he stood up for his beliefs"? Where is the line? That's what I want to know.

Why is it OK to not do your job because of your personal beliefs about homosexuality? Can other professions do this too? should that be OK? We're talking about a KISS, something the actor is paid to do. Sometimes you get to kiss Vail Bloom - score, sometimes you have to kiss Yani, bad day at work (for HIM, not me!). But it's a part of the job.

ETA: One more point - fear isn't BAD. Fear can be positive, help create change. It's when fear makes us do IRRATIONAL things - as in torpedo your acting career, that it becomes a problem. It's good to fear touching fire, but if you fear fire so much that you throw away your gas stove, then it's a problem.

Edited May 24, 200916 yr by Cashton

Wow! That's good!

This is an interesting distinction. I wonder if we'll ever get the true story.

I imagine we will all be sitting here a year from now asking the same questions. Just like we still don't know if Ed Scott was really letting someone write Days or not or even that he himself was doctoring scripts.

It seems lately the backstage personnel are really shutting down the true details and if the reporters know the true details they won't spill the beans out of fear they won't get any more stories. They break just enough to stir up fans into a frenzy, and then they shut up. And we end up a year or more later still upset at someone because of the little bit we do know.

That would be a wonderful story. But I think the other will too. I look forward to them showing a different side of how evil a villain can be. If this part of the rumors are true and that is the way Y&R plans to go with the story I am already excited. It is about time we get a villain doing something different than just using the town heroine to get what he wants - why not the town gay. It is a unigue and never been done. I am excited.

If Rafe were the town gay, then I'd also find the story more interesting, but he's a blip on the radar screen. Instead of a story about a character people know and understand being manipulated, it becomes about a character who was only created for this angle of Adam seducing a homosexual. The drama becomes about someone being so desperate that they will toy with someone of their own sex.

If the story is about using homosexuality as a way to get attention, or using homosexuality to show depravity, instead of about emotions or characters, then I think they're taking the wrong approach.

Edited May 24, 200916 yr by CarlD2

"Uncomfortable" feelings stem from fear! See I think there's been an interesting disconnect on words here for this thread. When i say homophobic it does not equal anti-semite. Get me? Gay-basher = anti-semite. Someone who actively seeks to hurt another person because of their predjudice is a biggot/racist/anti-semite/gay-basher. There have been many homophobic posts on this thread, but i don't think they hate me cause I'm gay, I just think they think being gay is WRONG! And yes, you are entitled to that opinion but it is homophobic. You have a fear of homosexuality.

Just because I'm not afraid at this moment of being murdered, doesn't mean that I don't inherently fear being murdered if the situation was to arise. I hate murderers. Murdering someone is wrong. If you think homosexuality is wrong, you do FEAR it. I wish all people could go take a psychology course and understand what fear is. it's not just "i'm afraid of cats". Or that I run away from something cause it scares me. Fear does make you uncomforatable. The sick feeling the actor got in his stomache at the thought of kissing Yani is the same sick feeling Steve got from thinking about going on his first plane ride.

Do you guys get what I'm saying? The straightest men in the world are the ones who could care less if a gay guy hits on them! Not because they're bi, but because they're not afraid of another person. it means that they're secure enough in their sexuality that it doesn't mean anything and they can politely say "No thanks". it's the gay-basher who acts irrationally and kicks the crap out of him who is insecure and AFRAID.

But being uncomfortable about your first flight? Fear is not comfortable is it? It's UNcomfortable! From the posts it seems people are generally upset that the actor is being labeled homophobic - he is IF he refused to perform the role because of his feelings about homosexuality. We're not talking about personal time, we're talking about WORK! as an actor on a serial drama you know that you will be working with a diverse set of people and circumstances in emotional and sexual circumstances. What if he was a doctor and refused to see a patient because the paitent was gay and was fired because of it - would you say "he stood up for his beliefs"? Where is the line? That's what I want to know.

Why is it OK to not do your job because of your personal beliefs about homosexuality? Can other professions do this too? should that be OK? We're talking about a KISS, something the actor is paid to do. Sometimes you get to kiss Vail Bloom - score, sometimes you have to kiss Yani, bad day at work (for HIM, not me!). But it's a part of the job.

I don't know as someone else said I must live in a grayer world than you do. Your definition is so black and white to me and so restrictive. There is no give and take at all. It is this and nothing at all. Maybe you don't mean it to be that way but sorry that is the way it definitely comes off to me.

And this not letting your beliefs influence what you will or will not do in your job is wrong to me. I'm sorry but I have beliefs that I feel so strongly about that I don't care what or who or how much I need the money there are just some things I am not comfortable with and won't do.

If for instance I worked in a doctor's office and out of the clear blue that doctor started performing abortions for no reason at all. I would walk out that day because I am uncomfortable with abortion for any reason. I think abortions are only right if there is a medical reason for them or a woman has been raped. I feel strongly about that and there is no way I could be part of an abortion that didn't fit those reasons. Does that make me anti-abortion - and anti-woman's choice - hell no. Because I am not. I think abortion should be legal. In fact I don't think it should be government controlled at all. It should be a normal every day procedure available at any doctor's office for the medical reasons I listed.

And I have walked out on a job once before because I refused to serve a man who had beaten up two black boys simply because they were black. My boss told me I had to serve them but I would not do it. He said either do it or your fired. I handed him my apron and walked out. The man had the right to be there. I just did not feel like I could serve him. I wasn't comfortable with it.

We all have our boundaries. In Engen's case I have a hard time seeing what was so bad, but then again I am not him and I have not walked in his shoes. I do not know his personal demons and what he goes through.

As I have said before in here not everyone that is uncomfortable kissing another man is a homophobe. Some gay men when they are in that initial battle also have trouble with that. We don't know what went into his reasoning here. The rumor just says he didn't want to kiss a gay man. At least what I have seen I don't remember the actual rumor saying that he refused to do it because he hated gays. Uncomfortable to me means anything. If he is a guy battling sexuality he may be uncomfortable just because he is not ready to take that step.

It all boils down to we do not know. We can only speculate and that is fine to do but to label a person on speculation is where I think it takes the step one step too far to the right.

I was raised in a Christian home. I am not one now - far from it. One of the verses that I remember still said Judge not that ye be not judged. And I think that applies here.

I don't want anyone judging me at all, much less on speculation. If you ahve to judge me at least judge me on the facts and not just on your speculations.

I don't know as someone else said I must live in a grayer world than you do. Your definition is so black and white to me and so restrictive. There is no give and take at all. It is this and nothing at all. Maybe you don't mean it to be that way but sorry that is the way it definitely comes off to me.

And this not letting your beliefs influence what you will or will not do in your job is wrong to me. I'm sorry but I have beliefs that I feel so strongly about that I don't care what or who or how much I need the money there are just some things I am not comfortable with and won't do.

If for instance I worked in a doctor's office and out of the clear blue that doctor started performing abortions for no reason at all. I would walk out that day because I am uncomfortable with abortion for any reason. I think abortions are only right if there is a medical reason for them or a woman has been raped. I feel strongly about that and there is no way I could be part of an abortion that didn't fit those reasons. Does that make me anti-abortion - and anti-woman's choice - hell no. Because I am not. I think abortion should be legal. In fact I don't think it should be government controlled at all. It should be a normal every day procedure available at any doctor's office for the medical reasons I listed.

And I have walked out on a job once before because I refused to serve a man who had beaten up two black boys simply because they were black. My boss told me I had to serve them but I would not do it. He said either do it or your fired. I handed him my apron and walked out. The man had the right to be there. I just did not feel like I could serve him. I wasn't comfortable with it.

We all have our boundaries. In Engen's case I have a hard time seeing what was so bad, but then again I am not him and I have not walked in his shoes. I do not know his personal demons and what he goes through.

As I have said before in here not everyone that is uncomfortable kissing another man is a homophobe. Some gay men when they are in that initial battle also have trouble with that. We don't know what went into his reasoning here. The rumor just says he didn't want to kiss a gay man. At least what I have seen I don't remember the actual rumor saying that he refused to do it because he hated gays. Uncomfortable to me means anything. If he is a guy battling sexuality he may be uncomfortable just because he is not ready to take that step.

It all boils down to we do not know. We can only speculate and that is fine to do but to label a person on speculation is where I think it takes the step one step too far to the right.

I was raised in a Christian home. I am not one now - far from it. One of the verses that I remember still said Judge not that ye be not judged. And I think that applies here.

I don't want anyone judging me at all, much less on speculation. If you ahve to judge me at least judge me on the facts and not just on your speculations.

i love how you didn't refute ANYTHING I said. Just my overall tone. Sad that you don't think you can be Christian now that' you've accepted being gay. That really breaks my heart.

If Rafe were the town gay, then I'd also find the story more interesting, but he's a blip on the radar screen. Instead of a story about a character people know and understand being manipulated, it becomes about a character who was only created for this angle of Adam seducing a homosexual. The drama becomes about someone being so desperate that they will toy with someone of their own sex.

If the story is about using homosexuality as a way to get attention, or using homosexuality to show depravity, instead of about emotions or characters, then I think they're taking the wrong approach.

I totally agree. And that is some of what we have been discussing at SoapsWEB the last few days. CBS has the impression that they are embracing homosexuality but to me they are not. None of their homosexual stories so far are anything to praise. NOt even Otalia in my book. If GL really wanted to do a gay story at least do one that is believable. I just can't buy into the fact that you have two women who have been all about the **** all their lives suddenly to fall in love and turn gay. If it was one of them it happened to I could believe it but both of them gimme a break. As I said over there, GL pull my other leg and it plays jingle bells.

And the Luke/Noah story is about two young guys who are both good looking but it still preaches the message that it is a struggle to be gay. Both of them had to come to terms with being gay and not just about being happy to be gay. I mean we all struggle wtih being gay but we get to a point where we are happy to be gay. Not once has ATWT made me ever believe that Luke and Noah are happy to be gay. They don't even seem to be proud to be gay.

I want to hold out faith for this story, but I also have my doubts.

To me CBS has just flubbed the whole thing in the first place. As I said over at CBS the one show on CBS daytime that should definitely have gay characters is B&B and it is the one show that has never had a serious long term gay character. If they really wanted to be a friend to gays they would rectify that situation.

i love how you didn't refute ANYTHING I said. Just my overall tone. Sad that you don't think you can be Christian now that' you've accepted being gay. That really breaks my heart.

That is not what I meant. I just choose not to be a Christian. I love my sinful ways too much. I don't think homosexuality is a sin but there are other things that I do that are definitely sins and I know it. I am not a bad person. I just choose not to make the sacrifices that I feel I would have to make to be a faithful Christian. I still attend Church some but there is no way I can fully participate in the sacraments and stuff because if I did I would be a hyprocrite. So I refuse to. It's my choice.

For the record, Michael Muhney is married with one child, but obviously he doesn't have a problem with the supposed upcoming controversial Adam SL.

A check is a check.

That is not what I meant. I just choose not to be a Christian. I love my sinful ways too much. I don't think homosexuality is a sin but there are other things that I do that are definitely sins and I know it. I am not a bad person. I just choose not to make the sacrifices that I feel I would have to make to be a faithful Christian. I still attend Church some but there is no way I can fully participate in the sacraments and stuff because if I did I would be a hyprocrite. So I refuse to. It's my choice.

I didn't get the memo that church is only for non-sinners, but yes it's your choice. I guess I just wish I knew how you disagreed with me my long post. Being homophobic is as natural for humans as it is for us to be predjudiced. It's when we justify being homophobic for "beliefs" that are based on fear, ignorance and insecurity - that's where the problem lies.

To go back to the debate about Chris Engen and being a martyr, I don't think any martyrdom is going to matter to his career, because he broke a contract. What I worry about is when Nelson Branco or Perez Hilton cause an atmosphere where blatant homophobia causes an ugly situation, and because of the crying wolf over homophobia, people are too burnt out to respond.

Yesterday I watched some Youtube clips of a documentary about Coronation Street, and the man who created the show said he was openly gay in the early 60s and he had a horrible struggle because of this. He talked about how this caused him to be pushed out of the show he'd created, with the last straw being when he was sitting in a storyline meeting, not saying anything, and he finally stood up and said they'd all spent the entire meeting telling gay jokes and making derogatory comments about gays ("poofs"). He reminded them that if not for him, a "poof", they wouldn't even be employed.

Homophobia comes in all shapes and sizes but when this big focal point goes on Chris Engen or on birdbrain Miss California, I wonder about what is going to be ignored because all the frenzy was already spent on these controversies Perez or Nelson helped whip up.