4 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Pat and Missy were introduced as the front burner heroines whereas Jacquie was just the kid sister and Susan never got of the starting block. So I don't think Alice was never really under threat. Same with Russ. Although the bible gave him a much stronger presence. I guess once you get into day to day writing things that were planned don't get incorporated for a variety of reasons.

Irna was more concerned with getting the lead characters right. She must have gone on instinct b/c the original Jim and Liz didn't get much of a chance and she might have had more in store for Susan that the actresses didn't hint at.

In her life story interview, published in Afternoon TV, Jacquie Courtney acknowledged that her job was in serious danger early on, as Irna Phillips was unhappy with the overly-bubbly way JC was playing Alice. Irna devised a story about the character going away to summer camp and perishing when it burned to the ground. It was only thanks to the intervention of a director, who strenuously demanded she tone it down, that Jacquie stopped overacting and began playing Alice in a more naturalistic, somber fashion. Irna noticed the change, approached the actress at the studio, and embraced her. "My Alice! Forget the summer camp! Forget the fire!"

Jacquie credited that director with saving her job.

@vetsoapfan thanks for clarifying. I wonder if Irna had stayed a bit longer, how things might have been different.

How much did James Lipton actually change? maybe some version of the Gregory family were already in the planning stages?

10 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

@vetsoapfan thanks for clarifying. I wonder if Irna had stayed a bit longer, how things might have been different.

How much did James Lipton actually change? maybe some version of the Gregory family were already in the planning stages?

Good question. I think (my memory is hazy here) Lipton only lasted for a short time; maybe half a year(?) or so in 1965.

Aside from expanding the Gregory family, I don't think he had any major, lasting effect on the show. The Gregorys were dispatched rapidly when Nixon took over.

9 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Good question. I think (my memory is hazy here) Lipton only lasted for a short time; maybe half a year(?) or so in 1965.

Aside from expanding the Gregory family, I don't think he had any major, lasting effect on the show. The Gregorys were dispatched rapidly when Nixon took over.

Believe it or not, I'm fascinated by James Lipton's decision to expand the Gregorys when he wrote AW. The family consisted of three characters, right? And was his objective to supplant the Matthewses as AW's core family?

8 hours ago, Khan said:

I think it was Bill Bell who said Irna was unusually impatient with AW, amping up the melodrama and making all kinds of snap decisions, because she wanted it to be a hit right out of the box.

I wonder how much of Irna's impatience and ratings concerns were tied to the fact that AW wasn't airing on CBS, where there was more of a built-in audience. (Geesh, imagine if AW was on the comparative no man's land of ABC.)

@Khan ,

IIRC, the first of the family to arrive was Ernest Gregory, in 1964. He must be have a creation of Irna Phillips'. He was involved with Janet Matthews (Jim's sister).

Ernest's brother Alex and Alex's wife Karen both popped in 1965, so they would be Lipton's additions.

Ernest and Alex had parents, both of whom came and went very quickly, also during Lipton's tenure in 1965.

I can't think of anyone else (but, as always...it's been 50 years, LOL). I believe there were five Gregory family members, four created by Lipton. And the entire clan was forgotten once Agnes Nixon began writing the show. Alex died, Karen and Ernest moved away, and the men's parents just disappeared as far as I know.

It's hard to guess today what Lipton's intentions were. Maybe P&G felt the Matthews family wasn't enough a draw and therefore mandated the introduction of another one. Anyway, none of these interlopers made much of an impact; they became forgotten in the dust-bin of history.

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by vetsoapfan

16 minutes ago, Franko said:

I wonder how much of Irna's impatience and ratings concerns were tied to the fact that AW wasn't airing on CBS, where there was more of a built-in audience.

I've wondered that myself. Wasn't AW originally scheduled opposite SFT? If so, and if SFT was still doing well in the ratings, then Irna might've been worried that her show wouldn't gain any traction against its' competition.

25 minutes ago, Khan said:

Believe it or not, I'm fascinated by James Lipton's decision to expand the Gregorys when he wrote AW. The family consisted of three characters, right? And was his objective to supplant the Matthewses as AW's core family?

Actually, the Gregorys supplanting the Matthews family is an urban myth, even though it has been mistakenly presented as fact in several soap opera history books. The Gregorys were brought on to replace the Baxter family whose storylines had finished. They were never intended to replace the Matthews clan. During the entire period the Gregory family was on AW, the Matthews were still very firmly AW's core family -- just read the episode synopses or the scripts. When Agnes Nixon arrived as head-writer, she quickly (but not as quickly as most people assume) replaced the Gregory family with Lenore and Helen Moore, and Rachel, Ada and Sam -- two small families, the Moores and the Lucas's.

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by Tisy-Lish

2 minutes ago, Tisy-Lish said:

Actually, the Gregorys supplanting the Matthews family is an urban myth, even though it has been mistakenly presented as fact in several soap opera history books. The Gregorys were brought on to replace the Baxter family whose storylines had finished. They were never intended to replace the Matthews clan. During the entire period the Gregory family was on AW, the Matthews were still very firmly AW's core family -- just read the episode synopses or the scripts. When Agnes Nixon arrived as head-writer, she eventually replaced the Gregory family with Lenore and Helen Moore, and Rachel, Ada and Sam -- two small families, the Moores and the Lucas's.

Actually, that's a good point. While it's long been reported as fact that the Gregorys were meant to "replace" the Matthewses, it makes more sense that they were substitutes for the Baxters. At no time were the Matthews family members backburned or decimated. And if P&G wanted them gone, Nixon would not have continued keeping them center-stage.

Thanks for the clarification, @Tisy-Lish ! I've always assumed it was the Matthewses, and not the Baxters, whom the Gregorys were supposed to replace. Like @vetsoapfan says, if P&G wanted the family gone, then Agnes Nixon wouldn't have continued writing for them.

1 minute ago, Khan said:

Thanks for the clarification, @Tisy-Lish ! I've always assumed it was the Matthewses, and not the Baxters, whom the Gregorys were supposed to replace. Like @vetsoapfan says, if P&G wanted the family gone, then Agnes Nixon wouldn't have continued writing for them.

@Tisy-Lish bringing up "urban myths" is spot on. It's long been purported that Agnes Nixon came aboard and killed off all the Gregorys in a plane crash. That doesn't correspond at all with what I remember. Ernest, Karen (and I presume the Gregory parents) left town, and the only one who died was Alex, but in a car crash. Not a plane crash.

And P&G didn't stop Pamela Long and Gail Kobe from slaughtering the Bauers on TGL or Mary Ellis Bunim from dropping tent-pole characters Nancy and Chris Hughes from ATWT, so if TPTB wanted the Matthews family gone, they would have been dispatched.

9 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Actually, that's a good point. While it's long been reported as fact that the Gregorys were meant to "replace" the Matthewses, it makes more sense that they were substitutes for the Baxters. At no time were the Matthews family members backburned or decimated. And if P&G wanted them gone, Nixon would not have continued keeping them center-stage.

Nixon showed some real genius on AW (several times, actually). While Jim and Mary Matthews, the Baxters, and the Gregorys were all middle-class families -- Nixon's introductions, Lenore and Helen Moore were quite wealthy (even wealthier than Liz), and Ada, Sam, and Rachel were firmly working-class. So aside from Liz's wealth (from day-one), Agnes Nixon first introduced social class-conflict to AW. And that theme carried through both the Cenadella and Lemay eras. I believe social class conflict, and long tortured romances were the hallmarks of AW during its golden age.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by Tisy-Lish

6 minutes ago, Tisy-Lish said:

Nixon showed some real genius on AW (several times, actually). While Jim and Mary Matthews, the Baxters, and the Gregorys were all middle-class families -- Nixon's introductions, Lenore and Helen Moore were quite wealthy (even wealthier than Liz), and Ada, Sam, and Rachel were firmly working-class. So aside from Liz's wealth (from day-one), Agnes Nixon first introduced social class-conflict the AW. And that theme carried through both the Cenadella and Lemay eras. I believe social class conflict, and long tortured romances were the hallmarks of AW during its golden age.

YES!👍

17 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

It's long been purported that Agnes Nixon came aboard and killed off all the Gregorys in a plane crash. That doesn't correspond at all with what I remember. Ernest, Karen (and I presume the Gregory parents) left town, and the only one who died was Alex, but in a car crash. Not a plane crash.

I believe you are correct. There was no plane crash, and only one Gregory died (in a car accident, as you said). All the others just moved away from Bay City. And didn't one Gregory remain on the show for a significant time, after the others had left? I'm assuming that may have been Ernest, because of his involvement with Janet Matthews.

I'd love to know how the "plane crash" myth got started. But I've heard it repeated -- even on talk shows with soap opera guests -- and very often Another World is not mentioned, just the "fact" that one soap opera killed-off an entire family in a plane crash. And when that comes up, I always know they are talking about Another World and the Gregorys.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by Tisy-Lish

I am loving this discussion of AW's early years and all your memories of watching back them.