April 20-24, 2009

[DRW50]

I agree with you, Steve. I think besides making people wait, there's also no real push now in daytime to give people a reason to wait. Viewers probably assume the couples will be broken up or written into a corner almost as soon as they finally do get together.

I think more than anything soaps are about strong, easily identifiable characters, and that's what is really missing for me on a lot of shows now. Many characters are so generic, or they have become very diluted, damaged or ruined by horrible shock value storylines. If anyone had ever told me 10 years ago what Tad Martin would become, I never would have believed them. I'm not just talking about Madden either.

I think that is one of the parts of AMC I enjoy most at the moment, because Erica is once again Erica, complex and standing in her own world, and I hear a lot of viewers say Erica is what is really getting them through AMC right now.

[CSF]

Carl and Steve, I think you both touched on very accurate points here. I agree with everything you both said.

One thing that comes to mind with how rapid the storylines are, is the idea of the next day previews. ABC dropped them due to the budgets, but they should have abandoned them years ago. CBS' next day previews are horrible and should be dropped ASAP. They are way too long and too short. They show like 2 different storylines and show too much on those scenes, no "quick clips" of what's ahead to keep you in suspense.

A month ago, people were complaining that Y&R was dragging out the Katherine/Marge storylines for way too long. I disagree. It kept me on edge, wanting more and more and more. And still, even after the storyline ended, I still want to watch Y&R everyday, even when it's a mediocre day. I firmly believe that the television audience has adapted the concept of "this is talking way too long" because networks like ABC introduced those "Previously on..." and "On the next..." scenes for their soaps. Letting viewers know "it's okay to tune in on Monday, Tuesday and Friday. We will fill you in on Wednesday and Thursday later." That's not okay at all. I think this is just one problem that has led to the fast paced storylines which need to end.

Focus groups are another issue, but I'm not going to touch on that now. I think quite a few people in this thread have already addressed that.

[brimike]

Agreed!

[DRW50]

The preview clips also tend to make some viewers go, "My favorite characters aren't in this upcoming episode, so I'm not watching." It leads to a more fragmented experience.

I think pacing is one of the biggest problems on soaps now, either it's way too short, no beats played, or it goes on forever and ends in a very unsatisfying manner (Tarty on OLTL could be used in lectures).

I was watching an episode of a British talk show, Graham Norton, and Jennifer Saunders was talking about how much she loathed focus groups. Then they did a skit where they had a focus group watch heavily manufactured clips (like the audience laughing hysterically every time Jennifer said the name of a city) to further point out how skewed focus groups can be. Finally they proceeded to start making fun of the people in the group, in a good-natured way, to let them know they were being watched. I had no idea focus group hatred was so widespread. JFP will probably never watch that show.

[SteveFrame]

I agree about the characters 100%. Daytime needs to get back to those quickly. One of the things about the primetime shows that I love the most is the characters. When I watch Rescue Me for instance Tommy Gavin is always Tommy Gavin. The characters are defined. You know them and you love them. You know that somehow even when things look like they might go right for him Tommy is going to find someway to mess it up.

I disagree bout the part in bold though. That goes back to the couples mentality to me. Back in the day when ratings were great couples were hardly ever happy and together. We waited for Doug & Julie to finally get married for 6 years. Within a year they were apart again. The next year Julie got raped, Doug had fathered the baby by surrogate for Rebecca, then Julie got burned and divorced Doug, he got remarried, and so on. Yet we stuck with it and tuned in day after day. It took Doug & Julie almost 5 more years to get back together. This was the general format followed with couples. They were not happy that long. One big event was followed by another turn of angst and drama and waiting. It was that way from the dawning of soaps. Only in the last 10 years of soaps have viewers got into the custom that couples should be happy and together all the time - forever and ever - destined to love one another no matter what.

There is not one big couple of the early days of soaps that had a long period of togetherness for that long - unless they were put together and written off or put on the back burner. It just wasn't done.

Even Luke & Laura were only married about a year before Laura was killed off and then brought back a year later. They got back togehter and the only reason they stayed together was because they were written off into the sunset together. If Luke & Laura had stayed on the show, anyone would be naive to believe that the writers would have kept them together the whole time. There is no way - they would have gotten boring.

Sure viewers have the right to get mad about their couples being broken up but to lay blame on the show for that or to act like it is something new is absurd in light of the history of soap opera and of couples. Even as far back as radio think about the viewers of The Romance of Helen Trent. They waited for 18 years for Helen and Gilbert to get married and get togheter. It never happened. Helen debuted on the show as a single woman and every time she attmpted to marry Gil something happened, and it was stopped. They never got togehter in the whole history of the show.

Keeping couples apart and suffering is what soaps are all about. It is as old as soaps itself.

[SteveFrame]

Totally agreed.

I think one of the things too and sort of goes along with this is that viewers seem to want all plot all the time. And soaps have tried to do that. You will see in the discussion threads where people will comment that today's episode was all filler or nothing really happened so why tune in.

I guess I am a sucker for filler because I love it. It helps me get to know the characters better and get to know their motivations and thus helps me understand better why they act the way to do in regards to the plot.

Rescue Me is one of my favorite shows right now - really of all time. One of the things I love most is when those fireman are sitting around in that fire hall talking about nothing. It has nothing really to do with the plot at the time, but I enjoy it so much. Like the other night they were all talking about one of the fireman's inability to get it up that morning while watching porn. It had nothing to do with the plot but it was one of the highlights of the eppy for me. The way each responded to him was totally in line with their character and just was another way of showing the closeness between the fireman.

We used to get that with soaps but they are skipped over today. Some of the brightest moments on soaps from years ago happened when Marge & Jo sit at the kitchen table on Search For Tomorrow discussing their children over a cup of tea or when Nancy and Grandpa Hughes were in the kitchen together on As The World Turns or even in scenes like Papa Bauer and Bert washing dishes together on Guiding Light. On Another World Iris used to sit on her patio with her friends talking about things. Those were wonderful scenes.

And sorely missed today.

[DRW50]

Yes, but Doug and Julie were both strong characters. Viewers could follow them even if they were apart. They knew Doug wasn't going to gun down Tom Horton, or anything we might get on soaps now.

That's not true for a lot of couples on soaps now. Their characters are sacrificed and withered for the sake of contrivance or stunts. Viewers are given little reason to care about them outside of their relationships. So in the current soap format, if the characters are not going to be built up, then the show needs to keep them together. Instead, they split them up for random reasons and then both characters are so diluted, there's nothing left for viewers to care about.

[SteveFrame]

But I find it far worse and boring to see a couple together and doing absolutely nothing. Some of these couples they have kept together to the point they are nauseating.

I think terrible couples together is just as bad if not worse than bad characters. Both are a plague on soaps today.

Some of these couples have been together way too long or should have never been put together in the first place.

[Ann_SS]

While I appreciate Steve's comments about the waiting and unhappy couples, I actually think that this has to be changed for modern soap audiences that have many other viewing options. Stories need to move along at a faster pace with pay offs in a timely manner. It hurts the soaps because it means that they have to come up with more stories, but they are also hurt when stories drag out to long. What they need to do is stagger stories and put characters and couples on the back burner at times. However, most soaps refuse to let their main characters go on the backburner so they pay the price.

Carl is right. On today's soaps, few characters exist outside of their romantic couples. Individual characters no longer spend time with family members or bond with friends. Tight budgets is at fault for some of this, but if soaps are not going to give these characters definition as individuals, they have to be kept in each other's orbits as they make up and break up. If only to spare the rest of the characters from being inflicted up on them. It is a curse. It also does not help that all the characters consistently act in random, illogical ways that make you go WTF.

[DRW50]

I think it's good to break a couple up if you have strong character-building material and strong story for them individually. If you don't, then they will probably just become even worse, as I think Zach and Kendall have. Or JR, who has consistently been such a poorly written/stagnant individual that somehow he is even more pathetic after Babe has finally gone to the great sty in the sky.

Some couples can stay together and be fun, complex, entertaining, like Robert and Holly were in the mid-80s on GH. Or Blake and Ross on GL, they were together for several years (up until early 1996) without any major upheavals and I thought they were one of the show's strongest assets.

I definitely agree that terrible couples staying together is bad, and writing people into being forced to stay together is bad. I just think soaps need to work harder in creating strong identities for characters to fall back on when the split happens.

Yes, this is what I miss. Tighter budgets should just allow for stronger bonds between friends and family, but instead, we see continued character assassination and bizarre, half-told storylines. Like Blair on OLTL. She finally has her mother sane and well, and what do we see, we see her pining for John McBain and trapped in the most ludicrous custody battle ever with Todd.

[SteveFrame]

But why does it have to be that way in soaps. Look at how long the Stabler/Benson fanbase have waited for SVU to put them together. The whole history of the show. Every time it seems like it is going to happen they back away from it. It plays out as a backdrop to the stories.

Look at the faithful viewers of Lost at how long they have waited for things to happen.

When Nip/Tuck was at the height of its popularity, the serial killer story played out over parts of 3 seasons - 3 years almost.

I think daytime viewers have gotten into a mode that things have got to be written too fast. We have taken and adapted the concept of fast food to daytime TV. We want it now and just like fast food is not good for us - we have turned soaps into fast food - it is no longer good and nutritious and enjoyable.

If the writers will write a story that hits the right beats, builds the right angst, and fulfills the right amount of drama and pathos viewers will be compelled to watch and be compelled to wait.

I'll tell you I will take that kind of story telling any day over the rushed stupid convoluted mess we get today. I point to the Josh Madden story for a supreme example. That story went from A to Z in 2 episodes. It was like an orchestra playing The Fifth of Beethoven in 5 seconds. You didn't even have time to feel for Erica at all. you didn't even turn around good before he had been shot, Erica decided to kill him and he was gone and then forgotten. It left me sitting there going damn that was fast.

No one will ever convince me of the fact - and many have tried - that daytime has to be this fast or faster paced. It does not have to be and daytime is suffering big time for it.

The faster pace for one thing is the key reason why we don't get stronger characters anymore. They jump from one plot to the next to satisfy viewers need for fast pace that they don't have time to build characters. You cannot build a character jumping from plot to plot. You have got to slow things down and give that character filler scenes that define his character. Back when Julie got burned we were given scene after scene of her sittign around talking and letting the audience know why she felt she had to leave Doug and so on and so forth. In comparison to the Josh story, we got one scene where he tried to explain why he went off the deep end and one short scene with Erica contemplating an enormous decision. If you blinked you missed them.

I'm sorry I will just strongly have to disagree on the faster pace thing. I in no way advocate that we have to go back to ultra slow pace of old but it needs to slow down a lot from what it is now.

[SteveFrame]

Oh and the backburner of couples thing. It is not just the shows that won't allow that it is the fans too. Couples and characters need to take breaks from time to time. It just doesn't happen anymore as much as it should.

And the thing that CarlD mentioned about forcing couples to stay together. That is what has happened way too often these days. And it has made many couples who started out as good couples turn sour for me quickly.

As much as I love Liason, I am one of those that understands the reasons why Liz can't be with him. I understand those reasons. For me to try to force the writers to put them together no matter what would be forcing them to write Liz as stupid and not a good mother to put her children in that danger. And I would be the first one to complain about it too.

Just like in real life sometimes circumstances happen that doesn't allow the course of true love to run smooth. Some people are just not meant to be together. I like for my soap to reflect that from time to time.

[Silvia]

I love Liason and I would love to see them as couple in the open I think that it would help Jason - the most stale character of ever

couple fandom aside I can't believe that TIIC don't want Jason evolve from Carly/Sonny and Michael - not caring about Jake it's what is killing Jason IMHO

[Ann_SS]

Basically we agree then because I believe that the pace of stories have to have a happy medium. They cannot be Bill Bell slow or ATWT speedy pace. For the most part I like the speed of ABC and Y&R's stories.

I do not think that you can compare the pace of stories of a daily serial to a prime time drama. Since modern soaps no longer build up characters or show them bonding with friends and family or involved in other stories then the stories have to move faster because it is not surprising that the audience would get tired of repetitive scenes. How many times can the same characters have the same conversation every week before someone changes the channel? After the 3rd time? Move the story along or give the characters a distraction so the audience isn't bored to death.

The shows have to man up and put their popular characters on the back burner, ignore the vocal screaming fan bases and give the rest of us a break from some of these characters and couples.

[mswainwright]

Hey folks - thought I'd stop lurking, join the fray, and weigh in this excellent post. I've watched soaps for almost 35 years, since my aunt got me hooked on her favorite "story" Y&R. And I've watched many on and off from Another World, Somerset, Edge of Night, Loving, Ryan's Hope, Santa Barbara, Sunset Beach, Capital, OLTL, ATWT, AMC...you get my point. But its been tragic to see writers and producers lose sense of what makes serial storytelling a great genre (from Dicken's onward.) Its all about great characters (friends and families) and stories which cultivate basic human emotions: fear, hope, love, anger, angst etc.

And its great to see Y&R return to being just that - a show with great characters, well acted with compelling stories (all isn't perfect, but most is back on track.) The core families stayed in place and friendships abound. Phyllis is a high-strung unpredictable firebrand again (played pitch perfect by the incomparable Michelle Stafford); same with Smiling Jack, Mr. Mustache Victor, Mommy Dearest Nikki and for the most part everyone else, I even buy Billy Miller as Billy because the original character (pre-Mac) was such a Bad Boy and now he's a Bad Boy Toy. Katherine/Marge was just great fun to watch, mostly because it showcased JC award winning talents. Never liked Sharon, but I would and do tune in to watch what happens to her neverending string of bad decisions. What MAB did was lobotomize the characters and turn to pure plot which hummed along at a fast clip surely, but bulldozed most of the characters who muddled unconvincingly through really bad stories. And boy did I tune out, I just didn't care for or about anyone. Now it seems that Y&R is more or less back with its slow storylines, what I call its "slow burn." And I'm back watching on the tube or on-liine. Like who is MJ anyway and what is her deal with Victor and why does Paul seemingly know her? Jill/Glo vs Victor - OY!? TPTB seemed to have gotten back to basics and its clearly slowed the hemorraghing of viewers - ditto with Days.

GH, however, is another pathetic flatlining case altogether. I remember exactly when Guza came back and he slowly "killed off" all interested in the characters or stories for me. His disdain for women was a major, major turnoff especially for a genre that has a primarily female viewership; if I want blood, gore, hyper-masculinity I'll watch the Sopranos. Now I could careless about any character on the show - there little that is poignant, romantic or angst driven about GH - (correction - angst is certainly part of waiting for them to ax JFP, Guza and Frons ). And its too bad, because it has a pretty good stable of actors who if the character's were more multi-faceted, with better dialogue and brilliant story arcs, it could easily climb on top again.

Soaps are a guilty pleasure of mine and I hope those in charge of the industry get back to basics of serial storytelling before they kill off the genre. As the success of Desperate Housewives, Gossip Girl, Sex in the City and other shows remind us, people will keep tuning in if the "stories" are juicy and characters compelling enough.

A thought.